The Pilot Episode

Summary:

In the inaugural episode of the Living Your Learning podcast, Craig McHugh and Pam McHugh discuss the essence of learning and leadership. They explore the significance of applying learning in real-world scenarios, the challenges faced in doing so, and the importance of creating a positive culture within organizations. The conversation delves into psychological safety, emotional intelligence, and the role of empathy in effective leadership. Pam shares her insights on navigating team dynamics and the necessity of fostering an environment where individuals feel safe to express themselves. The episode concludes with valuable advice for aspiring leaders.


Takeaways:

Living Your Learning emphasizes the application of knowledge in the real-world.

Psychological safety is crucial for team success and individual growth.

Leaders should inspire rather than just motivate their teams.

Empathy and emotional intelligence are key traits for effective leadership.

Creating a positive culture fosters camaraderie and teamwork.

Learning is a continuous process that extends beyond formal training.

Time management is a significant barrier to applying learning.

Leaders must adapt their styles to meet the needs of their teams.

Open communication is essential for addressing team dynamics.

Vulnerability in leadership can strengthen team relationships.

Transcript

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Okay, so hello and welcome to the very first episode of the Living Your Learning podcast. And our very special guest on our very first episode is the amazing, the beautiful, phenomenal Pam McHugh. So, welcome Pam, how are you? Well, after that introduction, very well, thank you very much. Well, I am a little bit biased, but there's a special reason why you are on our very first podcast because you were also at the very start, you were there at the very start of Living Your Learning, which is almost eight years to the day from that phone call that I made to you on the platform of Bristol train station when I said, I'm going to quit my job and start a business. Yeah, yeah, remember it well. What went through your mind? Okay, interesting. I trusted that you were doing it for a reason. I'd seen how you had been with work and, you know, I always knew you had a sense of adventure, but didn't quite expect a phone call like that. But yeah, nervous, excited and holy shit. It literally was one of those moments. And I remember the first day I woke up as an unemployed person who had to start a new business, it was like, what happens now? What do I do? And eight years later, we are having our very first podcast episode. So thank you for enabling me to start that journey and for being a huge part of that journey. I honestly couldn't have done it without you and living your learning wouldn't exist without you. So I suppose one of my first questions is, because we spent a little bit of time thinking about what this crazy thing that we were going to start, we were going to co-found together was going to be called and we settled on Living Your Learning. So I'd like to know after all these years, what does Living Your Learning mean to you? think for me when we're kind of playing around with the ideas of what to call this business and kind of like also your ethos of how you approached your learning, it was definitely the you need to live it. And I think that's where it stemmed from. Very much and I've been not addicted, that's the wrong word to say, but I've been the recipient of some training providers that, you know, it's a mic drop and leave. And I mean, you'll laugh at this. You can teach me how to drive doesn't mean I can do it. And I think the whole purpose of Living Your Learning was very much the idea of, yeah, you get taught something new. You then apply it, you then adjust, you then get coached, you then just literally move through a different way. And I think your whole business model was very much, I'm not just going to train and leave, I want to be a part of you and I want to continue the journey and also reinforce what I'm like, the gems that I'm giving you. And I think that's why we use the word living because it's not full stop. it is continuation of that learning. And I think that's kind of where we kind of wanted to go and what I've been most proud of when we did create the business and the model that we used. And I know when I was first involved, I was the aftercare service. I was the one that went into the business after you had given the skills to management teams, to people, to everybody. And I then helped reinforce and coach and get them to a point where they have learned something new but also revolving that learning and continuing it because yeah, I mean, we all are creatures of habit. We all are people that we can't just be taught something and then forget about it. We have to keep doing it. And I think that's basically in a nutshell why we call it living your learning. That's why I'm proud of what we do and what you do each and every day. you. Yeah, no, I couldn't agree with that more. You've got to do stuff, haven't you, in order to learn properly, and it's got to result in change and... You know, i won't lie, that's still hard now with the clients that we have and that we work with and not through anyone's fault or through a lack of trying, but the trials and tribulations of everyday life and everyday business sometimes make the application and the reinforcement really difficult. But yeah, that's so important that that living bit, that reinforcement bit actually applying something is really, really crucial to learning, isn't it? Yeah, well, it's an investment in change and the investment is sometimes really, really tough. And like you say, it's difficult to prove a return on investment for learning. We can't really put training and development on a spreadsheet and see, look, this cost this, now it's now saved us this, or it's brought this in. It's difficult. But I think that was one of the things that you really were quite niche when you first started. You wanted to prove the return on investment on the work that you were doing. And I think that that shines through because you've sometimes, and I'll be honest, you've turned work away if people don't want to follow this path because you know it won't be effective and you don't want to leave a client not knowing that you've made a difference to their people. And I think this way of doing it this way, it has to be the way forward. Absolutely, because learning does not start and end in a classroom or a training room. It happens when you go back to the real world, when you get back to work, when you're with your colleagues. You have to be able to do something with it. So what would you say? Because, you know, they do exist. And for some of the reasons I just mentioned, but what do you think prevents people from? applying the learning because there's lots of people like me like Living Your Learning like us when we first started doing what we do and trying to really embed that learning. But what do you think now you're back out there in the corporate world permanently and away from the day to day of Living Your Learning? What do you think of the blockers? Time, the discipline of time. I mean, I've been guilty of it. I've gone to a really, really inspirational like kind of like workshop or course and then not picked up my notes or tried to apply or do anything. So I've just gone straight back into the same old kind of like my emotions of the day. And I think it is a real discipline to take that learning and bring it in straight away into what you do and I think that's the hardest part it really is because a day to day just creeps up on you. Yeah, it is. And the one thing I've always said since I've started my career in learning development, which has been going for more than 20, over 25 years now, is that training and learning is not something that's done to you. It's something you've got to take responsibility for. You've got to apply it. You've got to try stuff out. You've got to make mistakes. you've got to do things differently and it's got a result in a real change. And I think that maybe you could give a perspective on this as well. I think there's still a sense that people like me, like Living New Learning, other training providers, other coaches, we hold the responsibility for the learning and we're the people that do it to you. Where do you sit with that? Absolutely agree. Someone once said to me when I was, I used to, in my early days of leadership, used to get really, really stressed if my team weren't hitting their targets and I'd take it upon myself. And someone said something to me and it was resonated. Since they said it, you're not responsible for their results, they are. I am there to help guide them, but ultimately they are responsible. Yeah, a million percent. hard switch when their results also mean maybe potentially yours. But you've got to remember you can lead a horse to water, as the old saying goes. that's the thing. That's why for me, any kind of coaching or learning has to inspire people to actually want to grab it. And that's the difficult part. Even if sometimes you might have to learn something that's quite compliant and quite maybe dull, it's then how you bring it alive. the purpose of it and the why you're doing it and how it's going to make you better. And what does it mean for me? That's the big question that you see. Yeah, I've sometimes been in workshops where there's blank faces, where someone's telling people something that is something that's changing. And all they want to know is how does that affect me? How does that affect me? And sometimes that's missed and that's the real kind of amazing part of it. But yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that. That's so spot on. And what are, and I imagine that you've probably not thought about this. I'm going to put you on the spot here a little bit. What are you, and this question is going to maybe come in two forms, we'll answer however you want, is where do you see this podcast going just in terms of what we've been speaking about just now? you know, it's a weird one, right? And I know you've done, you've trained me, you've trained my colleagues. Yeah, okay, all right, whatever. And I think for me, and I hate to say it, because I don't wanna like sort of make your head any bigger than it sometimes is, but you've got such an ability to communicate effectively and resonate with people. I have a colleague, Heidi, and I'm sure she won't mind me mentioning her name. she's awesome. she can listen to you forever. What you say resonates the way you say it, the way you deliver it. So that is really, really key. And I think this podcast will go out to people that possibly just absolutely love engaging with you because they know how lovely and great and inspirational whatever that you are. But also I hope it also shows people how learning can be different, how it doesn't have to be tick box. how it can be absolutely tailored to their needs, tailored to their people. I mean, I remember when I did work with you, we never used to sign on the dotted line with the client, so we came in and lived and breathed their business and understood it and just observed. And I think, you know, there's an element of hopefully something said in here will teach people or show people some different way of thinking, but also just show that there is a different way of doing training. And I think, yeah, there's twofold. There's the people that know and love listening to you. And I think hopefully people will listen to this and may take something away from it because that is all that it should be about. Podcasts should be informative, inspirational and educational. And I think that's hopefully what this series will start doing for people. Hells yeah to that absolutely for me. This is really going to be an extension or value add to what Living Your Learning does to, you know, the other guests that we have on, we're gonna be introducing, not giving anything away just yet, but our co-host on our next episode who's gonna be helping out a lot on this podcast and gonna be a key part of it. And I want this podcast to help people like them, to help our other guests that come on to share their message. because that's all part of the learning. Again, the learning doesn't start and end in a classroom or a training room or watching a video. It's got to have these other mediums. It's got to have these other interactions where people can absorb something and think, maybe I can use that or they might go away and reflect on it. So I suppose what I really want to do showing off my learning theory knowledge is I really want to... this to be a part of people going around that learning cycle. So they're coming into the podcast, having maybe experienced something already. They're going to observe a conversation around something. They're then going to reflect on that and think, yeah, what works for me? What doesn't work for me? Then what can I do differently? What actions am I going to go away and try out and then actually try stuff out? And I want to give this to the world completely free. I want people to, yeah, as you said, to be inspired, to be educated and to this to be an extension of not only the other stuff that we do, but the other stuff that the other people that come on do as well. So people can come properly and truly learn. That's what this podcast is all about. So yeah, thank you for that. That's amazing. It also could be seen, and this is something I would like, clap my hands for, networking for the introverted. Yeah, I'm in for that absolutely up the introverts Absolutely. Amen to that So yeah, absolutely couldn't agree more with that couldn't agree more without those extroverts or weirdos. No kidding extroverts. You're not you're not weirdos Okay, so as well as obviously learning this podcast is going to be all about learning in different guises in terms of what learning is and how to learn and how to develop yourself and stuff like that. There's also a few other key themes within Living Your Learning and the work that we do. So one is around leadership, one is around developing teams. And within that, there's a whole thing around communicating and emotional intelligence and other stuff besides. So I want to just ask you something about the first of those, first of all, which is And I'm really putting you on the spot here because I'm probably going to ask most people to come on this. Is what does leadership mean to you? The million dollar question. Do know what, for me, it's, mean, I've been in leadership a long, long time and it's in the title. I don't think leadership is a status. I think it is the ability to bring people along on a vision that you believe in and in a way that, I mean, there's always that fight between inspire and motivate. And I liked, I prefer, yes, okay, my role as a leader is to motivate your staff and motivate your people. but I'd rather inspire, I'd rather do the pull than the push. So for me, yeah, anyone can be a leader. The old saying lead by example, absolutely, I 100 % agree with that. I am there completely to serve my people. I'm a very servant leader. I think for me, you have the accidental leaders and people that think it's for a status. And for me, it's absolutely not. I feel that my team are more important than me. wow. Yeah, and as long as we are on a common goal together, we have a common understanding what we need to achieve. Yes, the why is really important in leadership, but it also it's what we are doing to serve the people that we are looking after. And I think, you know, yeah, vision, company mission, absolutely everything within that and to inspire people to want to get there with you. And that for me is leadership. I've recently changed my title at work to manager. And I know, there's a real kind of line between leadership and manager. And you know, I always remember the saying, I don't know if was you that told me or somebody else, I think it probably was you. You manage stuff, you lead people and if you've got to manage a person then something is fundamentally wrong either with your processes or with your style. Yeah, I mean, I mean just just saying that to yourself managing another human being there's something fundamentally wrong in that You should never have to manage a person no, if anything, my team manage me, but I'm used to that now. and there's nothing wrong with that. And the thing you mentioned about motivation is really good as well. One of my mantras and one of the things that I always try and get across in the LYL leadership programs and master classes is that it's a leader's job to create an environment where people can be motivated to do their best work. think Steve, yeah, absolutely. And I think Steve Jobs once said, What is it? Managers persuade people to do things they don't want to. Leaders inspire people to do the things they don't think they can. Yeah, yeah, that definitely resonates. it's a case for me. It's all leadership is definitely about creating a culture in the team with complete and utter psychological safety, complete and utter purpose, knowing why they are there, what they are doing and how it impacts others. yeah, and that's that's the job you've got to remind them because the day can be tough. And if you are leading a group of people with very different thoughts, feelings, emotions, values, you know, everything, every human is completely different and to adapt your leadership style not theoretically and like let me read a book and I need to make sure I behave like this, to actually fully understand the EQ of your people around you and how yours can impact them and how you adjust it then that's leadership to me, that really is. Yeah, you've mentioned a couple of things there that for me are really crucial. First is culture. So why is culture so important to you? Because I know you've been in good, bad and indifferent over your career. Yeah, culture absolutely creates camaraderie. And if you get it right, then you've got a team that is in it together for the right reason. So if your culture isn't correct and it isn't right, there's no belief. is absolutely people are just there just to and you get the people that just want to come in, do a great job and leave. But then you've got if you've got bad bad culture, then you won't even have those great dependable people and you won't have the people in the future to be the leaders, the leaders of the future that you need. So yeah. you mentioned psychological safety as well and we've talked a lot about that over the years. So tell me a little bit more about your thoughts on psychological safety and why that's important. Everywhere I've worked, I have done my absolute best to foster psychological safety within my team. I've been in companies where it hasn't been something that is outside of my team sometimes and that, you know, I feel sometimes my role is to make sure at least they've got that with me. But like without psychological safety and they're actually talking now about making psychological safety almost as good as health, the same as health and safety, the physical side of it, because without You're going to have people that just will not want to grow with the business, that don't want to... I want to be challenged. To my team, I say to them, challenge me. I always say to them, tell me what's wrong or right about that before we go ahead with it. And they have absolutely... sometimes very, very um vocal. But I absolutely encourage that and I foster that completely in my team because I'm not always right. and I need a team that I can trust that will challenge me and they know that, you know, fail fast, that's definitely something at Checkatrade at the moment. We are really, really strong culture of failing fast. So give it a go, absolutely give it a go. Yeah, and it's one of the things that's really resonated with me because very often it's like, God, you can't fail, can't fail, but where I work at the moment, it's absolutely something, let's try it, let's give it a go. And I'm sure they won't mind me saying that, it's one of our kind of be bold is one of our values as well. Yeah, I love that one as well. And also, as you said, being able to fail, to make a mistake, because you can't learn if you don't fail. You can't learn if you don't make a mistake. You can't succeed without having made mistakes. I'm not sure there's one person in the world that has succeeded without failing at some point and making a mistake. that's absolutely huge for me, that psychological safety. First attempt in learning. I won't take the credit for that one either. I got that one off someone else as well. That's an old one that is. But it's so true. It's so true. And yeah, I think it's becoming a lot more important. You've said there that you're starting to see that it's up there with just normal health and safety. It has to be, it absolutely has to be because I think all the research clearly shows that teams and organizations that have big psychological safety, they are far more successful and sustainably successful than those that don't. Leading through fear is not the way to go. If you're psychologically safe, you can bring your whole self to work. And that's I want my people to do each and every day. I love that. That's amazing. I'm having that. If you feel psychologically safe, you can bring your whole self to work. That is amazing. And that's what we want in our people, isn't it? You mentioned EQ as well. Why is that important? my goodness, you know, I'm not clever. I don't, so I've got no common sense, you know that. My IQ is not the best, but I absolutely work hard on my EQ, emotional intelligence. Because I think you can be Einstein, but if you don't work well with others, you cannot regulate your emotions, you cannot choose how you react to things, you cannot be socially... incorporate with other people then what's the point? And I know Einstein's obviously absolutely up there, I'm not saying this. Well, again, the studies are showing that people with high EQ will be more successful than people with high IQ every single day of the week without fail. And the studies are proving that. It's the highest predictor of performance and lots of other stuff. So yeah, it's really, really important. And you're particularly good at the empathy side of things. Whereas I am the direct opposite to that. I can do it, but I have to do it on purpose and I've had to learn to do it. And I've had to learn to really value that skill and appreciate it because I just don't naturally go there. I just want to fix things and I'm practical and work it out and get stuff done. Whereas you're all about the empathy and the people. So how important is empathy? That's huge. I mean, sometimes I think it is a they say it's a superpower power, but I also think sometimes it does does it does hinder because I I feel sometimes I might think, maybe this is the right thing, but I think of the people first. And I think about how anything can impact the person. mean, I remember one business and they used to hate me, I'd be a devil's advocate because every time I say, well, okay, we'll do that. How's that going to impact Beryl? I don't know where Beryl came from, but anyway, it's awesome. I I think having empathy will allow you to quickly use part of your brain to adapt and realise and not make any more damage to what you're potentially saying or doing. I think the whole point of, you know, we're going through a lot of change, i mean, not just, like all businesses are, and to have empathy of how that change can impact people has got to be hugely part of everything and everything I think about. Yeah, because for me, I think we're all in the business of people because organizations are created by people. They're led and run by people for the purpose of providing something to another person in order to get something back from that other person. So it makes sense that people should come first, but yet sometimes I don't see that and that absolutely baffles me. But having said that, I do think there needs to be, and this is my kind of, if we're doing the colour profiling work basis, you're yellow, green, I'm blue, red, so we're direct opposites. So you're all feeling behaviour, I'm all thinking. Sometimes we do have to balance it with those thinking behaviours with the results and the outcomes. So how do you do that? This is one of my biggest development areas, strategic kind of thinking. I'm a very creative thinker and I'm starting now more with work I am doing, being able to be more strategic because I know the strategy will eventually support my people's success. So I think it's just remembering sometimes of just, you know, yeah, I will never stop being an empathetic leader. I can't, it's just innate in me. Thank you. that some of the decision making and some of the skills I need to learn around that is something I need to balance with it. I think you're better than you think you are. Where would you sit with this? So I think, and I really strongly believe this, so the yellow-green colours, that's your feeling behaviours, the blue and red in the colour profile is your thinking behaviours, and then either side is introverted, extroverted. I think the best leaders come from your side, from the yellow and green, whereas the most leaders I experience are actually in the other half. Where do you sit with that? Because I think it's easier for... people like weird people have got yellow and green going on. I'm kidding. I think it's easy for you guys to move up into the thinking behaviors than it is for us in the thinking behaviors to move down into the feeling behaviors. Where'd you sit with that? Yeah. the feeling behaviors are you can't force them they have to be a natural element of your style. I can put the breaks onto my emotions and become very pragmatic and very kind of red and blue if I want to. Yeah but I think you struggle more going to the emotions. I think that I'd say it's that different part of the brain as well. I automatically go straight into that. But I can quickly, I can quickly change if need to. If I'm extremely passionate and I'm absolutely confident about something, there's no stopping me and I will take control completely. But that leads back to making sure the why and the vision are good Doesn't it? That's really really interesting So I'm This is a controversial question and I'm really putting you on the spot here now What if you have what if you have people within the team or the organization? who Despite your best efforts are just not right They shouldn't, to coin a phrase, and I don't particularly like the phrase, but you know, it's one that's bandied about, they're just not right for your bus. What do you do then? I have always been, yeah, you get results. Results are results. Black and white, yeah, you've hit your target. However, if I've got somebody that isn't behaving right and that's impacting not only the team but also themselves, I'll be very honest with them because no one wants to be unhappy. We're at work a long time. If someone is not on the bus, as you say, clearly they're gonna be unhappy. Yeah. for me, it will be absolutely open conversation of like, you know, you're here a long time and I want you to be happy at work. I want you to be able to trust people at work. I want you to have the ethos and this is one of the questions in the Gallup survey that we do is, do you have a best friend at work? And it's not, yeah, and it's... question. People sometimes take it the wrong way and as really like literal like God knows no one I'd invite around my house and wrap for Christmas dinner but it's the values of a best, yeah it's the values of what you see in a best friend, someone you can talk to, someone you can trust, someone you can reach out to and I'd almost want to say to that person that's not quite there you know I want you to have that kind of environment at work, I want you to have that trust and that yeah it's being happy, it really is. As I say you're at work a lot. believing in what you do as well. Because you get fulfillment from that, don't you? Yeah, I'm with you on that. I'm a great believer in if the person isn't right for the bus, then you should help them find another bus. Because I think that's a leader's responsibility, because it's irresponsible to keep somebody there who's not. Here's another question based on the best friends one. Do you think it's okay for a leader to be friends with their team? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's absolutely there's a level of the thing is, I don't know, I'm very, very lucky. I've never had to have a situation where I've had to be a tough leader or manage somebody. You know, yes, okay, you manage their workloads, et cetera. But I've always had such a great relationship because from the day one, I've never. given them a reason not to trust me. But have you never had to manage them because of the way you lead and because you fundamentally care for them, you care for their success, you care for how they feel within the business, you care for the results they're able to contribute and because you're also their friend. I I know the people that have worked for you over the years, you know, they look up to you, they respect you. And you just, and if you could write a book on this, it would be a bestseller, New York Times bestseller. You somehow are able to balance that line between this is somebody that's leading me and I respect them and I'm going to follow them anywhere. But yet you can also be, their mate and go around their house for a barbecue and maybe go out for a beer with them. Or, you know, if they're having a really hard time, you go out for a walk with them on a Sunday, walking their dog or whatever. And I mean, I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it. I would find it really hard to do that. I'm not going to lie. think people, leaders should do that. But you just have this uncanny ability to get that balance. How on earth do you do that? Honestly, I don't know. I've just... I've never gone... I've never gone into a working relationship trying to get something for myself. Maybe it's as simple as that. that's so powerful. you know, maybe it's that. I am nothing without the people that I have the absolute pleasure to look after and lead. So why would I not be there for them? Because, you know, home work, they intermingle, they come part of the same being and you've got to have an understanding of that. You've got to know what, as much as they want to tell you, you've got to know what's going on in their lives. I mean, Yeah. people open up to me and I've opened up to them. I'm very vulnerable with my people and I think that's possibly hugely, I think it's a massive strength. think if you're vulnerable then you on the way to success definitely. recognise what you need and what other people need and then also they realise that you are someone they can talk to and open up to and want to work well for because I'm in my team, I absolutely adore them. They're obviously at work this week without me and they are absolutely fighting to uphold the standards that we always do each and every day. They really make me proud, a good bunch. But you live and breathe the values, you're invested in them, you're invested in the business and what the business is trying to achieve for the people they're serving, ultimately your customers. And I think that rubs off and there's a huge difference between, and again, this is not the PAM show, well, maybe it is, you are the guest, but there's a huge difference between the leaders like you who are able to do that and who become noticeable, almost beacons. and then the leaders who don't do that, who become noticeable for the wrong reasons. Where do you sit with that? I don't know. I think everyone's a beacon for something. It's just sometimes I think people may get too involved in the day. I'm not sure. It's a difficult question that one. Okay, maybe another episode as well. Okay, so... empathy coming out for people that you might be talking about. I wasn't actually thinking of anyone in particular, I honestly wasn't, but I just, you know, in my 25 plus years of doing this, you can, the leaders like you are very noticeable, the leaders who are not like you, so the direct opposite, are very noticeable. And I think even more so now, maybe than before, leaders like you are coming to the fore and are being noticed for the right reasons. and the leaders who don't do the right things, who don't lead in the right way, who are not all about their people, and who are not invested in serving the business and their customers as well. And all of the amazing things that you just said. I think those people who don't do that, I think they're also being noticed for those reasons. And I'm wondering and hoping that the way forward for leadership is the example that people like you set. That was meant to be a compliment. Have I embarrassed you? Liar. Okay, so we're nearly at the end of this first episode and wow, what an amazing first episode. First episode of the LYL podcast. It's been a long time coming and couldn't have had a better person on our first episode. Somebody who has been there from day one who has... made such a difference to me, I wouldn't be here without you. LYL way I wouldn't exist without you. So thank you for that. So one last kind of thought for you to leave us with is for all aspiring or existing leaders out there, your best piece of advice you could give them. I would say, and I know we already mentioned this, allow your people to bring their whole selves to work. Wow, I love that. And on that note, I think we'll leave it there. Pam, you are definitely coming back on the LYL podcast. Thank you so, so what was that? Yeah, you are. not unless I charge you We'll come to an arrangement, don't you worry about that. But no, thank you. Thank you so much for being a part of our first podcast. Really excited to see how the rest of the podcast matures and evolves and develops over the coming weeks, months and hopefully years. So thank you for being a huge part of what we do. You're welcome.