The Living Your Learning Podcast
Exploring all things leadership, learning and everything in between; The Living Your Learning Podcast is THE place for top chats, awesome insights and a splash of inspiration that will light the way to awesome leaders, amazing teams and even a better you!
The Living Your Learning Podcast
Episode Two - A Call To Courage
Summary
In this episode of the Living Your Learning podcast, Craig McHugh and Lisa Butler delve into the multifaceted concept of courage, particularly in leadership. They explore the definition of leadership courage, the risks involved, and share personal stories that highlight the importance of being courageous in various situations. The conversation emphasizes the role of vulnerability, resilience, and the impact of courageous actions on teams and organizations. They also discuss practical steps to cultivate courage and the significance of self-reflection in understanding one's values and integrity. The episode concludes with thought-provoking ponder points for listeners to consider in their own lives and leadership journeys.
Takeaways
- Courage is essential for effective leadership.
- Vulnerability is a key component of courage.
- Courageous actions can lead to personal growth.
- The impact of courage on team dynamics is profound.
- Self-reflection helps clarify personal values.
- Courage can inspire others to act.
- Resilience is built through courageous experiences.
- Effective communication is crucial when being courageous.
- Leaders must create a culture that encourages courage.
- Courage is about making difficult decisions for the right reasons.
Sound Bites
"It's okay to say, I was wrong."
"Courage breeds courage."
"What does courage mean for you?"
Hello and welcome to the second episode of the Living Your Learning podcast, exploring all things leadership, learning and everything in between. The Living Your Learning podcast is the place for top chats, awesome insights and a splash of inspiration that will light the way to awesome leaders, amazing teams and maybe even a better you. We hope you enjoy the episode. Hello everyone and welcome to this latest episode of the Living Your Learning podcast. I'm Craig McHugh. We have the amazing Lisa Butler with us as well again as our co-host. So Lisa, how have you been since our last episode? I'm alright, thank you very much. Just getting ready for Christmas with the Christmas school stuff so it's all a little bit hectic but I have been very well, thank you very much. And yourself? yeah, really good, really, really good. yeah, really, really, what's the word I need? Really happy with what we discussed last time around. There was so much there and so much value and I know a lot of our listeners got lots of value so I'm really excited to do this episode and to see what we can put to rights in this latest episode. So. in terms of what we're going to discuss on this episode of the LYL podcast. So we have decided to talk about quite a interesting and broad and dare I say maybe for some a scary subject potentially in as much that we're going to talk about courage today. So what's courage all about? Was that for me to answer? thought you were on a roll. It's like asking hypothetical questions. What is courage all about said the tin man to the scarecrow. Indeed and and yeah, I mean I just said there it's a really interesting subject I think for some it might be a scary subject because I don't think it's something that a lot of people talk about and I think it can involve some scary stuff. Would you agree with that? I was just saying before, wasn't I, that I feel really nervous about having this discussion today. And it's because I recognise in myself that my own journey to acknowledging courage and leadership involved a huge amount of vulnerability. And so I'm feeling like a little bit fizzy about the whole conversation. But I think that's what courage is. It's the fizz. It's the... It's the nibbles on the back of the neck and it's the... It feels hard and a little bit difficult and a bit scary, but I'm going to do it anyway because it's the right thing to do. million percent that and me too. This is a subject that I really believe in just like yourself. I think it's really important but yeah I find it a bit scary as well. I find it a bit of the unknown. It's a bit like... staring into a really dark hole and going, my God, what's in there? And you know, it brings for me a little bit of anxiety, a bit of tightness in the chest, which I'm actually feeling now because this is, this is such an important subject and, and a thing that I think we, need to bring out into the open and make a thing that people talk about and embrace and know how to do. So Let's start off with leadership courage, because I think courage encapsulates lots of areas. So there's, I think there's courage in leadership. I think there's, there's maybe also a discussion around courage in actual within a group of people within teams, and then maybe just everyday courage, you know, in your everyday life. And this may span a couple of episodes or even two or three episodes, because it's a really, really big subject, but let's start off with. leadership courage. So just give me a definition of what leadership courage is. the definition of leadership according to the dictionary of Lisa Butler is You know when you should have prepared and you should, when you know someone's going to ask you the question, you should have written it down. Okay. So leadership courage is, I'm going to make it up. It is. Right, I'm processing. You answer it. So for me, and I don't think there is a, I don't think there's a one size fits all definition for this. I think it might mean slightly different things to different people. But for me, I think it encapsulates a number of areas. I think it encapsulates vulnerability. I think it encapsulates doing things. even though you're not too sure what the outcome is going to be. So within that there's decisions, making decisions, there's taking risks, but also, and we've talked about this in the past, there's a big thing around integrity and doing the right thing and standing up for the right thing, even though you know that people might be against you or actually you might, what do I need to say? You know, for example, if somebody does the right thing, but they get get in trouble for it, you know what I mean? I think that there's there's that kind of thing It's perseverance a part of it is resilience a part of it I think it encapsulates so many areas and and that's why it might be more than one episode to unpick all of this in its various guises is where that's leadership teams or in everyday life. So yeah, that's that's kind of my start for ten really So for me, I think courage and leadership shows up as a willingness to stick your head above the parapet even when you don't know what the outcome is going to be. Even when it feels uncomfortable or sticky, that you still go ahead and do it. And not in a foolhardy way, but in a way that is sort of underpinned by... what am I trying to say? Edit this piece out. That's alright, keep going. It's a tough subject. It's that willingness to come to the decision when you don't know what the outcome is gonna be, when you've listened to other people around you, you've looked at the evidence and you make a decision with the best intention for the greatest good and you do it. Yeah, absolutely. And what about if when doing all of that, so that really encapsulates a lot of those kind of subsections that I mentioned. So vulnerability, decisions, risk, integrity, etc. What happens then? Because I've heard of this, I've even seen it where, and I think there's two parts to what I'm about to say and two ways of looking at it. There's the leader that, isn't courageous and doesn't do the right thing and carries on because they're protecting themselves or there's the leader that's courageous, they do the right thing. They do all of the things you just said, but actually it might be to their detriment, but they're doing it because it's the right thing to do. Do think that's a part of it? Yeah, and when you say detriment, what do you mean? So, I don't know. They could get some kind of, I'm trying to pick the right word. You I said getting in trouble earlier. I don't necessarily mean that or a punishment or a sanction or whatever, but you know, you hear of leaders who try to do the right thing. I mean, let's take the corporate world, for example. They try to do the right thing. but they might be the one that do get sanctioned or they lose their job or whatever and then a new leader will come in and do whatever wants them to do, whatever they wanna do. Whereas I think some leaders who are really courageous, they'll go, no, that's not the right thing to do and it might result in them. Yeah, it might result in a negative impact for them. Does that make sense? Yeah, and I really recognise that. Can I share a story? Please do. So I was, roll up your chairs. Right, so I am recalling an incident in a previous job and whilst I was in green, but there was something wrong. There was a process that was broken and it impacted on a group of individuals, my people, really, really badly to the point where... people were being brought back off in the middle of their leave periods to fulfill quite minor tasks from another tasking organization. like, no one, no one was really talking to each other. And I remember just getting into this room and with about 20 other equivalent ranks and saying, okay, guys, we, we need to do something different. This is wrong. And this is, this needs to change. What I need everybody in the room to do is go up through their own chain of command to say we can't do what you're asking us to do and Expecting them to all go. Yeah, you're absolutely right. This is this is not right We should definitely do that and we should definitely work together and they all looked at each other and one of them said and So sorry, you want us to go to our line managers and say we can't do what they're asking us to do and I was like, yeah that's exactly what I want you to do because if we all do it together then we'll get some traction and the right thing will happen. And nothing happened because they all laughed at me. And I remember feeling furious about it. I was embarrassed because I was the only woman in the room, but I was embarrassed because like they all laughed at me. And I was like, but can you not see that this is wrong? Can you not see that this is not working? And their unwillingness to be uncomfortable with saying no with having a difficult conversation with the people above them, for sticking up for other people, it really pissed me off, quite frankly. And it's like, and I think that's the difference between leadership and management actually, like, and maybe, and I think this is a really contentious comment perhaps, but for me, that the people that stand out are the ones that go, Yeah, this is sticky. This is uncomfortable and we are going to have some difficult conversations, but we have to put our heads up and we have to do the right thing here because we're putting our people first. Without our people, we don't have anything. The impact for me was that everybody, know, nothing happened. I just felt really let down. I tried my best for my blokes and stuff, but that kind of culture of let's not upset the people above us is so... mouldy. It's horrid. It's toxic. Mould is toxic, isn't it? So, because I mean, again, you know, we've already said it. during this conversation that this is a really, really tough subject. And we can state what we think being courageous includes. We've mentioned vulnerability. We've mentioned it's about decision making, maybe taking risks, putting yourself out there when you don't know what the outcome's gonna be, integrity, But I'd really like to try and unpick this thing about... and go further with what you were describing there and give people something that they can use or something that can inspire them to say when something needs to be done in the right way. because we have to consider our people. Despite what others are saying we have to do, we're gonna go, no, this has to be done in the right way, or there are things that we need to consider, so we have to push back, we have to say no. And those leaders are afraid for their position, they might be afraid for their job, they might be afraid of ridicule. they might be afraid of some kind of sanction or punishment or whatever, what do those people do? Because it's all very well us saying, I'll be courageous, but when your job's on the line or when there's some kind of sanction or punishment or retribution, if that's the right word, on the line, you're not gonna go with the right thing, are you? What do you do? I think there then comes an inward reflection of who do we want to show up as in the world? Because if I say that I have integrity and people matter to me and... And then there's a situation where I do not have integrity because I choose not to do anything about it. think there's a, I think you have to be able to reconcile the two things together. And I completely understand that, you know, for some people they'd rather not say anything, not rock the boat. But I think you can look at it in a global context. We could all just not say anything because, you know, There are people who are much bigger than us and much richer than us and in bigger positions than us that make decisions that we don't agree with. So we could just accept it or we do something constructive about it. We figure out, we find out what exactly is the correct methodology in which to make a complaint. If that doesn't work, what's the next step? If that doesn't work, what's the next step? And I think it's... I've become a bit of a pain in the ass really as I've got older because once I get a bit between my teeth, I don't let go of it. But I think it's what matters more is it that we do what we're told, we go along with the status quo, we don't make a fuss and we go home every single night resentful and angry and feeling this deep burning fire that isn't going to go out because we see this injustice at whatever level that is, or do we put on our brave pants and do we say, I'm going to do something about that? Because I'm pretty sure that when we as humans see another person putting on their brave pants and we see them stepping into that space, I think it inspires other people to do the same thing. And the more people that can just go, that's not right. then actually we allow other people to say the same thing. And as leaders, isn't that what we're trying to do, is to inspire people to see a different way? whether that's the way that the culture runs, whether that's people staying way after their pay point has stopped paying for the day, whether that's the way that people are treated or spoken to, whether that's, whatever it is, like we have to be the ones to call it out. Yeah, I agree. courage and with compassion and just be like I'm just calling this out I'm just going to say it as I see it I'm saying this with love this has got to really, really important because, there's two things there for me. I think the first thing is when we use the term leaders, yes, we are referring to people who are in positions of seniority, but you don't have to be in a position like that to be a leader. Anyone can be a leader because, you know, if we think about what basic leadership is, it's about, for me, creating an environment or facilitating an environment where other people can be the best they can be, or facilitating an environment where things are better. So you don't have, firstly, I don't think you have to have that position of seniority to be the leader. even if we use your kind of military context from your previous experience, that even the lowest ranks can still, display leadership. I think the other point is that when you are being courageous and you're standing up for things, you don't have to be lary about it. You don't have to be aggressive and go, no, this is not right and throw your toys out of the pram and have a tantrum. how can people, leaders, members of a team, let's bring it all into one, how can people be courageous? in a really good way. That may mean that whilst they're putting their head above the parapet, whilst they're putting themselves out there, they're being vulnerable, which is again, putting yourself out there without knowing what the outcome is gonna be. How can they do it in a really, really good way, which may also make it easier for them to reconcile and go, do you know what? I'm still gonna do this, but it might not mean that I'll get in trouble for it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And this is talking about it from a self leadership perspective, perhaps within an organization rather than in a named role as a leader. Either or, or yeah, it could be that, but I think it could apply to both. So, when I do my workshops and stuff, I talk about creating your Gandalf stick. I don't think I talked about that last time today. Well, if not, we're gonna go. Right, so the Gandalf stick is like, imagine a massive, great, big, amazing, strong, straight stick that you can grab in your hand and you like bang it into the ground. And the Gandalf stick is full of all of your wisdom and your knowledge and your experience and your values and all the things you know to be true, all the golden threads that you know run through your whole themes of your life. When we have a really clear view of that Gandalf stick and when there is a situation where we find ourselves questioning, should I get involved or do I not get involved? That's the point where we bang the deck, where we kind of hold the Gandalf stick and be like, what's... Does what I am about to do align with everything that's in this stick? And if the answer is no, then that means you need to do something about it. But we can't do that unless you know yourself, unless you know what your values are, unless you absolutely know that injustice or fairness or whatever it is matters to you. So that means for me that having a very clear vision is really, really critical. And what I mean by vision is a different or better future place and knowing what that place is, what it looks like, where it is, but also the values which are the behaviors which are gonna help get you there. So that's really important and I would probably add to that as well, maybe to kind of understand what your why is, because I think that is different to the other two. Vision is where you're going, where you want to end up. Values is your behaviors is kind of how you get there. And purpose is why you're doing it, it's really the impact that you want to have. So I think... leaders, people, teams, organizations, and you have a clear vision, clear purpose, really clear set of values that are non-negotiables. I'm a great fan of those programs on Amazon that follow professional sports teams. Can't for the life of me remember what they're called at the minute, but they follow like American football teams and English soccer teams, football teams. And there was one that I watched which was about Arsenal Football Club and I'm really not an Arsenal fan at all. Can't stand them. Sorry any gooners out there. But their manager. It was absolutely phenomenal in terms of the culture and the values he was trying to create and there were certain things that were absolute non-negotiables within that organization that people had to adhere to otherwise they weren't part of that organization. So I think that's really really important as well. But assuming you that you've got all of that because I think yeah, you're right. That's really important. You've got to know what they are in order to decide that does this thing align with those areas? How does somebody then, in very practical terms, then kind of physically, conversationally, whatever, put their head above the parapet and go, excuse me, I'm not sure this is right. What do they do? How do they make that as effective as possible? Because, If you get really, really kind of, you know, lary, go, no, I'm not doing it, it's not right, blah, blah, blah, it's probably not gonna go your way. But I really believe that if you go about it in the right way, the answer still might be no in the long run, but at least you've had your say and people respect you for doing that. So how can you do that in a good way? So a model that I really like is nonviolent communication. I don't know if you can use that one, which is about understanding the other person, then overlaying what your observations are and then getting a buy-in at the end. that might look like, Craig, would you mind, hang on, I'll start that again. Craig, would you have five minutes for a quick chat about blah? So you'd say, yeah, okay, no worries. So we're going to have a quick chat. And then I might say something along the lines of, I've noticed that when you, when you leave the quarterly meeting, there doesn't seem to be much room for other people to offer their thoughts. And after the meeting, there's, there always seems to be a lot of frustration that they, that the team hasn't been heard. I wondered what your experience of that meeting is in that context. And then you would give me your experience and then I might say, would you be willing to, would you be willing, would you be willing to hear what other people have got to say in the meeting in the next time round? Of course, you might say no. And then at that moment, I know that the issue is you and not me. Yeah. I mean, I'm not an expert at communication at all, Craig, but I think that it all starts with a conversation. Yeah, does. Yeah, a million percent. So for me, think, you know, adding to that, very much adding to that, is it's about... It's about you, you recognizing that whatever the thing is that you feel you have to be courageous in or you have to stand up for, or you have to make a decision about. You have to be, and I know I'm repeating this, but I think it's so important because like you said, that Gandalf stick, that kind of reference point to say, right, does this align with this? If it doesn't, then this is something that is really important to stand up for. If it does, then great. but if it doesn't, then I need to put my head above the parapet and say so. again, yeah, I think it's about you entering into a conversation through a lens of emotional intelligence and being very self-aware of how you're coming across, of what you're thinking and feeling in that moment, but also how... Your coming across and behaving might be impacting others I think your own self-regulation managing your emotions in that moment because so a lot of these moments when you need to be courageous as we talked right at the very start I mean, even just talking about this subject is scary, let alone doing it, you're going to be very emotionally charged. So you've got to able to manage those emotions as well. I think your own motivation for wanting to do it has got to align to that vision, purpose and values and be really, really clear on that. Then you've got to be empathetic and then you've got to be very mindful about what you say and how you say it. You've got to think about your tone of voice. You've got to ask questions. You've got to understand the other person's point of view. You've got to get across why this is important and the impact of... what you're trying to get at. So if we do this, this is gonna happen. But if we do this, this is gonna happen. And it's gonna impact this and that person and this. So that everyone is really clear what it's gonna result in. You've got to listen. You really, really have to listen. And you have to craft a conversation that is a good two-way conversation. And I think then, does courage become a little bit easier? Because I think when we have to be courageous, I think it's really, really, it's hard because we don't know what the outcome is going to be and we might be scared of that. But also, I think it's also harder because we don't approach it in the right way. Or if it's a conversation that we need to have, we don't approach that conversation in the right way. What do you think of that? So I'm thinking that when we're kind of going through the list of pointers of how to be courageous, it sounds foreboding. It sounds like this huge list of things that you should be doing in order to be courageous. But I think fundamentally it starts with you've got to be willing to be uncomfortable. Yeah you do, million percent. Because when you're there and you're worried about what other people are going to think of you or the outcomes, you've got to just be able to hold. I think the key thing is I'm willing to hold this discomfort in an attempt to pursue what I think is right. And. Have you also got to be willing to be wrong? million percent and so for example we're going on a team away day and we're gonna go for a hike just a 20k hike and when we book the day it looks like the weather is going to be gorgeous and on the day the weather's shite and it's just not great and there's not particularly huge amounts of visibility and the guide is saying I wouldn't really recommend we can go out but I wouldn't recommend it And the team is saying, I don't really want to go. I don't want to do it. Like I'm anxious about it or whatever. And the person who knows the most about it is saying that I really wouldn't advise it, but we could if you really, really insist. the, it is okay for you to go, do you know what guys, actually today, maybe today isn't, or to start and then to go actually on consideration, this is the wrong thing to be doing. We're going back, we're gonna go to the pub and do team games around a pint. I mean, that's a really simplistic view. But I think. great way of looking at Lisa because I think, you know, we mentioned that being courageous is about, you know, sometimes taking a risk. So putting yourself out there, I'm not too sure how this is going to go. So, I don't know why fireworks have just come up behind me, but there we go. Enjoy that. Whoever's watching the video version. Those of you that are listening, I did something and loads of fireworks went off behind me. So go and watch the video, you'll see it. What was I saying? Yeah, so, you know, it's about making decisions. I think when we make decisions, we have to have as much information available to us and then we weigh it up. I think we have to, you know, still align that to our vision, purpose and values. And then we make the decision. And sometimes that decision might be risky. But other times it might be that, you know what, I've tried it and actually it was the wrong decision. So I'm going to now change that decision and re-evaluate the plan. That's been courageous as well, isn't it? I so. mean, I know some people who, when we make a plan and then halfway through it, I'll be like, I don't actually think this is the right thing to do. I think we should do this instead. They get really grumpy with me because they're like, but we've made a plan. I'm like, I know we've made a plan and now we've had time to reconsider elements of it. I don't think it's the right thing to do. We need to, or they've told somebody, this is a parenting thing. But I think parenting is leadership too. Child, mini human has been an idiot and there is a consequence for their behaviour. So you have given them said consequence and then just before the consequences about to go, you're like, I actually don't think that's the right thing to do at all. It is okay to say to the child on reflection what we've said is gonna happen isn't the right thing. reflection that the right thing to do here is this so that's what we're going to do like I don't see any weakness in that at all but other people see that as hugely wrong like once you have made the decision you can't go back on the decision and I just think that doesn't work for me I don't know if that works I'm you have to be able to re-evaluate your plan you you have to yeah, I mean when you you when you're a leader in whatever capacity that is and you've got decisions to make, then you have to do your analysis, you have to gather all your information, you make the best decision you can make at that time and then you create your plan and put it in place. But if you're not constantly going back and re-evaluating that plan, that's nuts, that's insanity. each time, you know, we should be kind of doing micro evaluations all the way through and just sort of, I guess it's a bit like if we were, if we were driving a ship, do you drive a ship? I don't know. But if we were driving a ship and we're watching where we're going and we're making micro adjustments as we're going along, rather than just, we'll wait till we've been sailing for three days. bugger, we're going in completely wrong direction. Okay, where is each micro adjustments? Yeah, absolutely. Didn't something like that happen in 1912 with the Titanic? We'll just steam straight ahead. We don't worry about the iceberg warnings. We'll just carry on. Look what happened! It hit an iceberg. Go on. Right, I want to bring this back to what it feels like because I think sometimes we're really shut off from how an experience might affect us in our body. So how would we know in our body if we're being courageous? So I want to ask you, think of a time where you have not been courageous in a situation where on reflection you could have behaved differently. What did it feel like when you were not being courageous? either during or after. just trying to sort of get a picture of what does that feel like. Yeah, I can't think of a specific incident, but I've definitely been in one. So I'll try and describe it the best I can. I think those moments where I haven't been courageous, I have felt, it's felt a bit safer. It's felt less difficult. And it has felt like I am letting myself off the hook, if that makes sense. So there's almost a little bit of relief. And I'm wondering that is that a reason why people sometimes aren't courageous? Because actually when you're not courageous and you go to, I'm not, no, not for me. And it's like, I don't have to do that now. And you feel more comfortable. feel a bit safer. There's that relief. And I'm wondering why that maybe prevents people from being courageous. Cause it feels a bit easier not to be courageous. So. Yeah, that's what I would say that I would feel. It feels more comfortable when it's a bit more of a relief, I would say. Okay, and then what about after the event? So the event has now passed, you know you were not courageous, you're reflecting on the event, how do you feel now? regret a million a million million million million percent regret and Craig your an absolute knob and that's shit and I'm shit and shouldn't have done that and then I'll spend god knows how long trying to justify it by going yeah but at least you didn't have to do that and yeah then and it you know it's a lot easier this way and blah blah blah blah blah and yeah that's just it feels it feels crap and you just make up excuses for why you didn't do it and I'd the impact of not speaking up? Not speaking up or not doing something because I think or either yeah, being What's the impact The impact is you you miss out on Well, it depends on on why you need to be courageous. So it could be that you missed out on really good opportunities. It could be that you miss out on growth and development. It could be that you leave someone something in a worse position, which I mean even that has really triggered, just saying that, has really triggered something inside of me, which is just awfulness. That because of what I didn't do, I might have had a real negative impact on someone else. So I put my own comfort before others. Yeah, that makes me feel absolutely horrendous. I have to say. Okay, all right, so just sink into that for a second. But like, it feels like from what you're describing, and you're not alone, we have all done that, we all do it, we all, it's easier to go for comfort and ease than the disruption, which is actually upsetting people, know, but nothing good ever comes out of doing stuff, being... neutral and vanilla. mean, know, vanilla ice cream's lovely, you know, you've got to, nothing good ever comes out of just not doing, not speaking up sometimes. Okay, so let's flip that on its head. Now, what about a time where you were courageous and you did do the right thing for the right reasons and you stuck your head across the parapet and you went in with your Gandalf stick. And there doesn't have to have been a change in the outcome, but you did the thing that you needed to say or do. you get, I don't know quite what the chemical is, but you get that shot of chemicals, don't you? When you feel, yeah, do know what, I did the right thing there, that was fricking hard. That was really super scary, but I'm so pleased that I did it. So yeah, it does. It feels really, really good. And it might be that it actually ends up in for yourself or either nothing changes or it may end up in a negative impact for yourself, whether that's somebody doesn't talk to you anymore or you lose opportunities in the workplace. You don't get that promotion. You lose your job or whatever it is, but you can. And some of those things are really extreme and really, really scary. But do know what, even if it led to a really negative impact on myself, at least I know that I can sleep at night and I've done the right thing because I couldn't live with myself if I didn't. And if it is something in the workplace where it means you don't get that promotion or... people don't put opportunities your way or your life's made a bit more difficult or in extreme cases you might lose your job, I think I'd rather that than be that person that would walk slower with my head held down and not have done that. because I don't want to be that person. I'd rather, I think I'd rather suffer the consequence and know that I've done the right thing and then be the captain in charge of my own ship to then overcome whatever that consequence is. But you know, I think if you go about that courage in the right way, and it depends on what it is you need to be courageous in, I think that sometimes you can lessen those impacts, but. because there might always be an impact on you and a not good one because you are putting your head above the parapet, you are saying no. But I think if you do it in the right way that you will have a better chance of getting a good outcome or at the very least you'll at least you'll walk away with your head held high. And I don't think there's anything ever wrong with that because I never ever, ever, ever, ever want to be in a place where I have to compromise what what I know to be right. It's not gonna happen. Does that answer it? Yeah, I think that's looking in the mirror at the end of the day after you've brushed your teeth and saying, did I show up with full integrity today? A million percent, and that for me is one of the biggest parts of courage, and that takes vulnerability. takes putting yourself out there when you're not sure what that outcome is going to be. It means taking a risk. It means making a really courageous decision, but you have to base that on something tangible like your Gandalf stick or vision purpose values or your... and all your integrity, which I think those three things are a huge part of that, or your standards even. So, yeah. Why do you think that people... No, different question. You just mentioned vulnerability. And I don't know if you follow Brené Brown. But when she Yeah, same. And she very much talks about courage and vulnerability go hand in hand, you can't be you can't be courageous without being vulnerable. And you can't be vulnerable without being courageous. And certainly, if I reflect on like the most that the extremes of both of those elements in my own experiences, I just kind of go, yeah, I can see that through and through. We just, but we don't talk about it in terms of being courageous. So I did a workshop and we, and the title was challenging workshop, challenging conversations. And it wasn't my workshop. And so I shifted it around to what if you shifted challenging conversation to courageous conversation? How would that even change the way you showed up to have that conversation? And it was a brilliant outcome for me because everybody was like, actually I can, courageous sounds so much more positive. It sounds like we want a positive outcome. We want to get to an agreement and a way forward, whereas challenging sounds like conflict. So when we sort of talk about, yeah, and we kind of come back to this every single time, don't we, about the words that we use. are really meaningful and impactful. Million percent. Where, what do you think, what part does resilience play in courage? For you. I'm wondering if... micro moments of courage, which we'll talk about, know, in another episode. But when we are courageous and we reflect on those events and resolve next time I'm going to do this or next time I'll do that differently, I think it helps to build up our resilience because we demonstrate to ourselves that we can, that we can be uncomfortable, that we can do something difficult and we're okay on the other side of it. Yeah, I agree. And I think it's important as well to understand what it is to be resilient. Because for me, resilience is when you, it's reminded me of the song by, Tup Thumping by Chumbawumba. I get knocked down, but I get up again. It's about every time you get knocked down, you get back up again. and you dust yourself off and you go again. So it's about perseverance as well. I came across a catchphrase quote type thing, perseverance conquers all. I was about to rattle off the Latin, but I can't quite remember it. So I'm not gonna embarrass myself. Resilience is not not experiencing those bad moments and those knockbacks. It's about... experiencing them and getting back up and driving forward again as Rocky Balboa says in Rocky 6. It's a great film if you haven't watched it. Lisa. Nothing is as hard as life or something like that. It will beat you to your knees and keep you there permanently if you let it You me or nobody is gonna hit as hard as that It's but it's not about how hard you hit it's about how hard you can get here and keep moving forward how much you can take and keep moving forward That's how winning is done and I really ruined so that that rocky quote is phenomenal though. I'm sorry It is profound, Craig. I got it a little wrong way around a little bit, but anyway, people will know what I mean. But that for me is resilience. It's about keeping going and not getting back up and going again, going back up and going again, and not giving up and keeping going and persevering with what you believe in. Now, if something's really not just ever gonna work, then sometimes you gotta be courageous and go, do you know what? Maybe this isn't gonna work, I need to go and re-evaluate my plan and maybe make a new plan. But that's being courageous as well. And all of these little things, for me, make up courage. Whatcha think? My visual of, see as you're describing that, I see that as a kind of, as a straight line, a pause and a straight line again. And my visual of resilience is slightly different to that. So mine is forward around a few buoys, but the knockdown doesn't mean that you have to get up and carry on in exactly the same place that you were when you sat down. And this has been a lesson and I'm still learning this lesson. But actually the resilience is the knockdown, the pause, the reflection, and then if needed, the steps back so that the next time you come to that same hurdle, you don't get knocked down again. Yeah, that's, yeah, I mean, it's making me think of, and I know you'll appreciate this, my business journey over the past nearly eight years now. In February 1st, Living Your Learning will be eight. And I can't count the amount of knockbacks I've had, the amount of mistakes I've made, the amount of plans that I've created, ripped up and started again. And... I would probably say in those eight years, I'll be really lucky if at least one week or maybe a month hasn't gone by, why I haven't gone, you know, I've said to Pam, you know what, that's it, I'm done. This is too hard, I'm giving up. It's just really too hard. And then you stop, you pause, you have a think, and you go, no, I'm not giving up. Maybe I need to look at it slightly differently. And I think that, and I'm not trying to make myself sound like this amazing courageous business person, I'm not, but I think that's also a part of courage, knowing. It's carrying on with something you really believe in and if it doesn't work trying something else and then going again If you get that not back going, okay I got I got that not back and it's really hard and it really hurts and you know, I freely admit vulnerability now I've shed more than a few tears over the past eight years and Yeah, it's but LYL is something I believe in And will I get it right all the time? No. Will I need to adjust? Absolutely. Will I get knocked back? A million percent. But I keep going and we find a different way. And I think that's a huge part of courage as well. Absolutely. I'm wondering about all of the things we talked about there. And when we think about the teams that we're leading, when they see us putting our heads above the parapet, when they experience someone standing up for their corner, for whatever that is, what's the impact on the team when a leader is willing to put themselves out for another person. It is It is huge. I'm not sure if Pam specifically spoke about this in the pilot episode. Go and have a listen or a watch, But she was kind of suggesting that in terms of how she leads and that she's there for her people and what she believes in and stuff like that. And if she didn't quite say it on the episode, she's definitely spoken to me. We've spoken about it loads. But the impact on the team is... is almost immeasurable. You can't measure leadership for me because other kind of business metrics, you pull that lever there and something will move there. But leadership happens over a long, long, long, period of time. You'll notice it when leadership doesn't happen, but when it does, it's not an instant thing. You can't measure it. yeah, I mean, the impact is yeah, is immeasurable because... People will walk through walls for you. They will follow you anywhere. They will do whatever they can to make that vision a reality, to bring that purpose to life, to live and breathe those values. They will be courageous with you. They might be really scared. I think we mentioned this last time, didn't we, about people kind of going over the top, as it were, and leaders trying to keep people safe. But yeah, people will do anything and they will go that extra mile. But when leaders aren't courageous and they don't lead as they should, or people, you know, because anyone can be a leader, don't lead as they should, then it's disaster, isn't it? I think there's that Maya Angelou saying, isn't it? People will forget what you said, but they'll never forget how you made them feel. if you experience someone who cares enough about you to stand up for you or to do something that's the right thing to do, that is such a powerful... that creates loyalty, that creates trust, creates momentum, that creates communication, that creates collaboration. Like it's, it is a cornerstone of it. It's how we create teams by being courageous and inviting other people to be courageous. So when you say, I want to hear your feedback, you really mean it and you really make the space to hear it so that they can speak up. Yeah. But I also think it has, I mean, we can also look at teams in the context of communities. We can, families, whenever people come together under a commonality, a cause, structure, whatever. I think, you know, it's gonna have that same impact. And I think courage breeds courage. I really, really do. And when you're not courageous, then you're gonna see it in the people around you as well. They're gonna reflect that behaviour. They're gonna imitate that behaviour. So yeah, it's so, so important for everyone and the impact is phenomenal and when you don't do it and then obviously the impact will be absolutely, well, can be catastrophic for me. And at the same time, I had a conversation with someone, an experience where I spoke up about something I felt really strongly about. And it was a big issue. And I was told by one person, be careful what you say because you might lose. that you might lose them by speaking up. And I said, well, to be honest, if they're not willing to hear my perspective, then I'm okay with that actually, because we don't have to agree on what we're discussing, but we do have to be able to listen and we do have to be able to understand. But I think it's really interesting, like when we talk about being courageous, when someone comes to us, as leaders and raises a concern, raises an observation, an issue or whatever, the very act of coming to see someone to raise that is courageous in itself and that should be honoured and celebrated and welcomed because often it's not, I'm not saying, this is the same as last time, I'm not saying it's you, I am saying there is an issue that I have noticed. and I feel so strongly about it that I want to have a conversation. that's honestly like how amazing would it be if we were just culturally able to do that? I want to talk to you about how this makes me feel or I noticed that doesn't work like but to just be welcoming that like that would be amazing. Yeah, it would. So if somebody needs to be courageous, so they need to put themselves out there they're not too sure what's gonna happen, or they even might know that actually if I do this, this is not gonna go well for me. Either I'm gonna get some kind of reprimand or I don't know, people are gonna think differently about me or. There's going to be some kind of negative impact, but I really need to be courageous. I need to stand up for someone or something, or I need to stand up for what we're trying to achieve or for the people that are around us or our community. You know, I need to stand up for our integrity and our standards. And they make that brave, courageous decision. They take a risk to put their head above the parapet and go, you know what, even though I think this isn't going to go well for me. I'm still gonna do it. What would you say to those people who are in that situation? Should they do it or shouldn't they do it? Should they keep themselves under the radar so that they can carry on in their comfortable life with no, or comfortable position with no negative impact on them? What should they do? There's some reflection questions. One is... How will I feel about this issue in 24 hours time? What's the impact if I don't speak up or do something now? And is that impact something that I'm prepared to live with without complaint? because if you can do something about it, you should. And if you don't do something about it, then you have to just put up with it, which is more difficult? But what if it's the case of, you know what, need to put my head above the parapet and say something because it's the right thing to do. Whether anything will change or not, doesn't matter. It might not be good for me if I do this, but I'm gonna do that anyway. Are we saying that people should try and... rationalize that and maybe ask themselves those questions there but should they also be asking well if something doesn't happen even though I've said something or I put my head above the parapet or actually this goes badly for me should they be asking those questions in order to determine whether they should do it? I don't really want to answer the question. And the reason is, is because I don't think that there's a black and white guide on it. And there are so many different scenarios. So if we, let's say we work together in a situation and I see that you keep touching up people's bodies as you're walking past in some slice, muddy way, you can bet your bottom dollar I'll be like, Craig. Or if I'm not saying, or, because actually, and this is just my personality type. Because if I hear everybody moaning about it, I'll always be like, for God's sake, I'll go and say something. Because you're not the only person thinking it or feeling it. So, you might be the person that stands up, but you can bet your bottom dollar that someone else will go, I would never have had the courage to say that. I would never have been able to do it. I'm so glad that they said it. So in the same way that we have different personality types, I think sometimes you've got to be the torchbearer. and be like, okay, I'm taking them on for the team. I'm going to do it. Because if you don't, who will? If not you, who, and if not now, when? So it's a case of, I mean, I can only say what I would do and I'm not gonna, you know, that was a really tough question and, you know, I appreciate it was really tough to answer. Personally, I would not ever compromise my own integrity and standards. And if it ended up meaning that by me feeling like I'm gonna do the right thing here ended up bad for me, I would still do it. regardless and then I would worry about the consequence later but as I said earlier at least I would be safe in the knowledge that I stood by what I think is right and I can hold my head high. So that's what I would do. But what you've also reminded me of is, and I put a post out on LinkedIn the other day, which is that leaders are beacons. Be careful how you shine. And I think that goes for us all. When you're in a leadership position or you're being a leader of some description, you are a beacon and that means you have to be the one that's visible. You have to be the one that goes first, that guides, and all of that stuff. Yeah, it's a really good analogy, that sort of... bringing people around and making, yeah, I totally can see that. I think it's a great analogy. I think also, just to go back on your previous question, if we are part of organizations that... that when we raise valid concerns, are sending us on the exit route rather than listening, then I think there's also a question of, do I actually really want to be involved with this person or this organization? Because we are who we spend the most amount, what is it? The five people you spend the most amount of time with is who you become or whatever it is. But you want to think about how do my values align with this company? And if a company shows its true colours that you are not able to raise a valid concern without fear for your job or your reputation, then episode 14, you know, is this a psychologically safe culture? Is it a culture that encourages honesty? And is it a culture I want to be part of? No thanks, I'll go somewhere where I can speak up and where I can be valued and I can feel safe. And again, making that decision and saying, yeah, do you know what? No, I'm not gonna, this is not okay. I'm gonna, no matter how hard this is gonna be for me, I'm going to go somewhere where... where this stuff is important and this stuff matters and and and somewhere that aligns with my vision purpose values etc etc you know that that that for me is is almost a definition of courage in itself is having the courage and the bravery to to do that even though you know it's going to be it could be really really difficult for you to do that and not just to accept the crap or the crappiness or the nonsense that's going on. And I think also is for you, all of you senior leaders out there and people who are holding positions of, you know, real authority or seniority in organizations is what are you doing to help the people in your organizations be courageous? How are you creating a culture where people can be courageous? Where they can be vulnerable, where they can take a risk, they can make these decisions, but also where integrity is important, values, vision, purpose, standards is important. What are you doing about that? That would be one of my. Yeah, and, and, and that what you've just said kind of just gave me a little bit of a poke, because it just reinforced that when there is leadership training, and when we're looking at this within an organization, it must come from the top, there's no point training the people in the middle, and asking them to feed it up and down, it has to come from the top. It has to. I just wanted to say, I get a spidey, witchy sense when I know that I have to speak up and I don't want to. Okay. I get a physical thing. It's like someone tickles, it's like someone's nibbling the back of my neck. I call them the neck nibbles. And every single time that I get the neck nibbles and I have not spoken up, the next day I've gone, I really should have said. And the times that I've listened to the call and I've gone. Could I have an awkward conversation with you? I've done it. The outcome has been amazing. Not necessarily because the person did what I wanted them to do or the outcome isn't what I had hoped for. The outcome was that I told myself that I trust me and I demonstrated to myself that I can rely on me. And when we're leaders, we have to trust ourselves. We have to trust our intuition. and we have to act on that. So in those times, and I'm sure you've had them, in those times where you've been courageous, I you did describe one earlier, but you've been courageous and either nothing was done or actually it ended up worse for you in whatever way. How did that make you feel? What was your reaction or your response to that? There's two sides to it. One is, how did I feel when I was being judged by other people for the thing I did? And how do I feel when I looked in the mirror at the end of the day? Tell me both. and I have to reconcile with myself. So, am am I getting from that that it was tough? Yeah, I mean, none of that's the thing. So much of this is not easy. It's really not easy to do these things sometimes. But I just don't, I'm not here for an easy life. I'm here to live a life, you know, that means something and has and makes impact for the right reasons. would you say on the whole, just from your perspective, and I think we're probably gonna agree on this, is it, from your perspective, is it better to look back and go, I'm really proud that I did that, even though it might not have gone the right way, or nothing might not have changed, or actually it might have made things difficult for me, I'm still really, really glad that I did it. Is it better to do that in your opinion or is it better just to go, do you know what, I'm not gonna do anything because I don't want to single myself out. The most difficult moments where I have had to be courageous have been the most defining moments of my life. And they are the moments where I look back and go, I'm really proud of me for doing that. That's it. wouldn't change it then. I'm getting from that. I'm just going back through my... I don't think I would change any of them. even though it was super, super hard at the time. Yeah. Wow, that's courage right there. So not only is it putting yourself out there and doing... do it and making those decisions or taking those risks. Because sometimes we just gotta try things out and it might not work and that's fine and it's like, okay, it didn't work, I'll try again. So you're resilient, you get back up, you try something else, you go again. That's courage as well. So it's kind of the forward thinking kind of perspective but also it's the looking backwards perspective where you say to yourself, do you know what, that was really, really, really hard, so, so hard. And you know what? It might not have even have worked or worked out or ended up how I wanted it to end up. But I'm so, so glad and proud of myself for demonstrating that courage or being courageous because of, well, because of what? What impact does that have on you? Looking back. what do you mean? So, looking back, so let's just say that you've been really, really courageous and it was really, really, really hard at the time and it may not have even gone well, but you're really proud that you did it and you wouldn't change that. What impact has that courage actually had on you in the long run? You said it was defining, so how is it defining? Even if it hasn't gone well? because it. because the experience allows me the insight to know. that that is what I value or I don't value. And so it's helped me to build up a really clear picture of who I want to be in this world. And it gives me a really clear sort of checks and balances of... Is that actually how I want to show up? Is this who I want to be right now? No, this is not who I want to be. And it just allows me to be a lot more aligned. I mean, you know, I am getting on a bit, so I'm nearly 50. And I really feel like I'm coming into this point of my life with a real assurance about who I am, who I like, what I like, what I stand for, what I'm not willing to tolerate and what I absolutely will. Yeah. I think that clarity around myself gives me the opportunity to create boundaries. So quite often, I don't need to compromise myself. And whereas when I was younger, I would have compromised myself. I'm on a call. I know, thank you, darling, but I'm on a call. Hello! Was that your little human? My eldest one has given me a reminder of where I'm supposed to be. Yeah, we're literally gonna wrap up now. So I suppose what I was getting at there, is that courage is really, really hard. It may not always end up in something good, Is that right? You will know when you do something that is courageous, you will know in your body, your absolute fabric of yourself that that was the right thing to do. And whether it's having a really difficult conversation with a friend, a sticky conversation with a colleague, pointing something out to a senior member of staff or whatever, you will absolutely know that it is the right thing to do because When you walk away, you'll feel a bit awkward, but just deep inside, you'll be like, I'm really glad I did that. I'm really glad I said that. That was the right thing to do. You will just know it. You will absolutely know it. Yeah, I couldn't agree more because I really want people to go away with even though it feels really, really hard that being courageous is... is worth it. You may not always see it there and then, you might not even see it for a little while, it might not even go your way, but it is so, so worth it. And when all of us are courageous, as you said, it has such an impact on the people around us, our teams, our families, our communities, because courage breeds courage and only in the long run, if enough of us do it, only good can come of it. Yeah, totally right. as we did last time, it's gonna be a new tradition of ours to wrap up. And we covered so much there, we've gone so over time again, but hey ho, it doesn't matter. What's our LYL PonderPoint to wrap up? Regarding courage. okay so I was thinking What does courage mean for you as an individual and what does it mean for the team that you work in? And what is a 10 out of 10? And where are you now? Out of 10, that's really good, in terms of courage? I love that. I love that. I think I'm gonna go for, again, for those in authority, senior leaders, what you doing to help your people be courageous? And I think just more generally for everyone is. Yeah, what can you do to be more courageous day by day? What can you do to put yourself out there regardless of the outcome? What can you do to make sure you show up with integrity and you hold your values dear? and your standards and that you keep going and that you're resilient because I think all of that makes up courage in one form or another and one way or another at different times. So yeah, they would be my ponder points. There we go. Wow, what a subject. And you know what? I'm not even sure we even scratched the surface on that. Such a good subject. So thank you Lisa. I really, really appreciate your time. A great subject. And thank you to everyone who's listening. So give us a listen on your usual podcast channels on Apple, Spotify. We're also on YouTube. Give us a like, a follow, and a subscribe. And we will see you again next time. See ya. See ya. There we have it the latest episode of the living your learning podcast We really hope you enjoyed it and don't forget Please give us a like a follow or a subscribe on whichever channel you are listening or watching us on and We look forward to you joining us next time
