The Living Your Learning Podcast
Exploring all things leadership, learning and everything in between; The Living Your Learning Podcast is the place for top chats, awesome insights and a splash of inspiration that will light the way to awesome leaders, amazing teams and even a better you!
The Living Your Learning Podcast
The Special Guest Sessions | Peter Wakefield | Developing People and Organisations
Summary
In this episode of the Living Your Learning podcast, Craig McHugh welcomes Peter Wakefield, a seasoned expert in learning, leadership and organisational development and culture. They discuss the importance of people development in organisations, and the impact of feedback and coaching. The conversation delves into defining culture, the significance of authenticity and intent, and the connection between vision, purpose, and values. They also explore the role of communication, fostering a positive culture, and as a leader and manager, the power of self-awareness and understanding people. The episode concludes with valuable advice for people and those in the field of learning and organisational development.
Takeaways
- Organisations are fundamentally about the people.
- Authenticity in leadership fosters engagement.
- Feedback should be a normal part of communication.
- Organisational culture is shaped by both written and unwritten rules.
- Emotional intelligence is crucial for effective communication.
- Leaders must understand their impact on others.
- A positive environment starts with understanding how people want to feel.
- Vision and purpose guide organisational direction.
- The best of the best are great communicators.
Sound Bites
- "It's all about people."
- "You have to know why you're doing it."
- "Leave your ego outside the door."
- "What is said and not written and what is written and not said."
Hello everyone and welcome back to the Living Your Learning podcast. Exploring all things leadership, learning and everything in between, the Living Your Learning podcast is the place for top chats, awesome insights and a splash of inspiration that will light the way to awesome leaders, amazing teams and even a better you. And on this episode, we are kicking off a brand new series called the Special Guest Sessions where we'll be inviting on special guests to share their amazing insights and wisdom on well, all things leadership, learning and everything in between. So enjoy this one, it's an absolute belter. Hello everybody and welcome to the latest edition of the Living Your Learning podcast. And this episode is a special episode because we have got a special guest on. You may notice that our co-host Lisa is not with us today because we have a very special guest on. And this guest is very, very special because he used to be my boss once for a while, didn't you Peter? A long time ago, mate, a long time ago, yeah. how was it bossing me? complicated. I'm not sure I want to do this anymore. Very easy, very easy. no, it was amazing. We will get on to that. So, yeah, Peter, just tell us a little bit about yourself, what you're up to these days. So my name is Peter, Peter Wakefield. I own and run a business called Loving Monday. And alongside Loving Monday, I have a number of associate consultancy relationships that I work with as well. So I work with some of my own clients and clients of various other people and various other organizations. And I sort of work at three different levels these days. So I do a lot of coaching at one-to-one level, at team level. and in some cases, organizational level. And I sort of work in four different areas. Area number one is I have a 25 year history in the world of employee engagement and the measurement and behaviour around that. That leads very commonly these days to lots of work around organizational culture for the same reasons, which leads into the world of leadership, which leads into the world of communication. And there's no great, business plan that says as to why I work in those four areas, I started purely as an employee engagement consultant many, many years ago. And you can't work in that field for long before you start thinking about organizational culture. You can't work in that field for long before you start thinking about leadership behaviour. You can't work in that field for long before you start having conversations around communications. So, yeah, so those four areas, three different levels and all sorts of sticky bits that join all those things together. Amazing. What is it that you love about what you do? Because I remember when I first started working with you, for you, and I think we probably clicked fairly quickly, didn't we? And one thing I just got from day one, and I hope I didn't misunderstand this or misread this, but just your total passion for what you do. I mean, it does ooze out of you. Ooze. Yeah. I don't you know. Ooze. Well, yeah, it's a word, Craig. It's a word. Yeah. Well, thank you. I guess, you know, when I, when I, back in the day when I had a proper job where me and you used to work, I used to spend my time managing people. organizational politics, budgets, all that sort of stuff, because I had a team of people and et cetera, et cetera. And when I became self-employed, 8, 9 years ago now, I put one success criteria on myself and only one. And that was to spend the majority of my time doing something that I wanted to do rather than something that I had to do. Because when I had a proper job, it was people like you who were doing all the interesting stuff because you were close to the yeah, all right. Because you are closer to the subject matter. And I was a million miles away from the subject matter at some point. So Yeah, that was one of the primary reasons as to, as to why I went self-employed really is just to get closer to the subject matter. And the reason why I like getting closer to that subject matter is because it is about people. All of it is about people. And, you know, I, grew up in a world of retail and I became a retail in retail management and I had a conversation with my area manager. six months after being a retail store manager. And he said to me, Peter, you were never going to set the world alight as a store manager. And I thought, well, it's an interesting opening line. This was my first annual appraisal six months into being a retail manager. And this was a big DIY chain, wasn't it? This was a big DIY chain, with an orange colour. Two and something in the middle. Yeah. And he said to me, Pete, you're never going to set a world of light as a store manager. And he said, the reason is, there's aspects of your job, which you're really good at because you enjoy doing them. But there's also aspects of this job, which you're not so good at because you don't really enjoy it. So let's see if we can migrate your career. So you're doing. more of the stuff that you enjoy doing and less of the stuff that you don't enjoy doing. It was that man and that conversation changed my life. And it was all the people's side of the business is what floated my boat. And it did right from the word go from an age of... I like human connection. I like learning from different people. I like different perspectives. I like talking to people. Yeah, I like debate... I like disagreement sometimes. Yeah, I just like the... Yeah, I'm a big people watcher. I'll happily sit in a coffee shop for an hour and a half just sort of watching people and things like that. And I don't you know, it's always been a thing and I can recall instances of that right from a very, very young boy. Some of my early memories are around watching people and thinking, that's interesting and things like that. And what's the impact that you want to have on these people? I, I'm not sure that I want to have, I don't you know, there's two ways to answer the question, isn't it? Do I think I want to have an impact? I want to create an impact in them would be more a different phraseology. and I think that's around just opening their eyes to something and realizing quite what they can do rather than focusing on what they can't do. yeah, just creating a. slightly bigger, better, more confident, stronger version of them as a result of spending some time with them and them coming to their own conclusions about maybe something that they thought they couldn't do and maybe they can. Well, here's one person you definitely did that for. Right here. Yeah, they're going to be here. No, I mean, what I loved about working with you, Peter, and we'll get more onto leadership in a minute, I imagine, was just your ability to have that conversation and to sit down and spend time. I we always joke about it now, but I remember our one-to-ones, which would be in a pub somewhere having ham, egg and chip and some pens and some paper and we would brainstorm ideas or we would go off to an event or an exhibition or something and have lunch and brainstorm. I mean, I probably, I mean, I loved it at the time, but I probably didn't quite appreciate it until afterwards, just how important and valuable that was. And also your point about you know, allowing people to work things out and to develop. I can't quite remember the exact words you said, but I definitely had that because I always remember one phrase you used to do. And sorry to embarrass you, but this was just genius. This is 101 in management and leadership, everyone who's listening or watching is you would come to me and go, Craig, got an opportunity for you. Yeah, probably, undoubtedly I stole that from a manager in my past as well. But undoubtedly it would be something that you didn't have a clue about. I didn't want to do or didn't want to do, but the point I'm getting at is we would, but you wouldn't just leave me to it. We would talk about it. We would brainstorm it. We would talk about it over a period of time. You would allow those ideas to develop and to then turn into something really, really good. You know, I remember the very, probably the biggest one was when you came to me and said, Craig, I've got an opportunity. what's that? And it was one of my objectives or something. And it was to, and it was a very, very vague objective, but I think this is what you had been given. So this is what the team had to work on. So it wasn't you just passing it on, I hope. But it was all to do with talent management. And it was to set up talent management. I think that was it. It was literally four or five words. And we were like, what the What the hell does that mean? And I am We look at each other. We haven't got a clue. Right. Let's sleep on it. And then I'll go and do some research and I'll come to you with ideas. Okay, that's not bad. And how about we go and talk to so and so. So I'll go and talk to so and so. Or I'd go, go to this event or I'll go to this, this workshop that was on or exhibition and slowly but surely we built this up into a couple of years later, because it was a really big piece of work and something that I was really, really proud of. And this was just towards your time there. And I think we finally launched it in the year that I left, was those leadership programs that we came up with, which were even to this day, absolutely world-class. and to my knowledge are still being used in that organization as well. are they really? wow. Or versions of them. Wow. Amazing. Yeah, it's, you know, I guess it's one of those things that you get in our world. You work in an organization and you'd work in the people part of the business, right? You know, and you and I never worked in the HR bit because that would bore the pants off both of us, quite frankly. I mean, anything that's got, you know, anything about the law or policy in it that I'm not interested. Yeah, it's not, it's not my bag. But the more creative, the more people focused, you know, the things that could go in one or two ways. mean, used the phrase talent management. There's, you know, there's hundreds of books that you can buy now and it means very little to many people, but it means so much in such a variety of different things to so many other people. And therefore you've got to have the thought process that says, actually, what are we trying to do in this organization? Yeah, million percent. its level of complexity, with its level of ambition, with its leadership profile, with its organizational culture. And you've got to build something that works in there, not for where it is now, but for where it's trying to get to, which means you have to start thinking about capability and future capability and everything else that goes with it. So, yeah. do you believe that the people function? I'm not saying that part isn't important, but I am gonna exclude the HR part now in just this little bit. Do you think that the kind of stuff, the kind of work that we were doing within our team, so there was the organizational development side of things and there was the learning and development side of things, do you? Because this was always something that really came across when we worked together and something that I've really tried to keep going with all of the clients I work with now, that that part of the people function should drive the business, not necessarily be reactive. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, totally. And I think, you know, in an organization that really understands itself, that happens just by accident almost because it can't go anywhere else. You know, the risk is that, you know, there's organizations that set themselves targets, standards, intentions, objectives, whatever that might be. you know, none of those, whatever, I don't care what organization it is, what sector it is. whatever they're trying to achieve, whatever they're trying to achieve needs people to achieve it. And therefore that requires a number of really base level things. requires, you from my background, from an engagement point of view, requires people to be engaged in that direction of travel. And if they're not, you ain't going to go in that direction, whether you want to or not. It requires all the basics, you know, in terms of some of the, you know, some of the, some of the basics in terms of employing people and everything else. But yeah. The direction of travel is one thing, the people capability, and that's a broad brush statement to be able to get there as well. So you can have an objective, you have an intent. If you haven't got people who want to walk in that direction, you're not going to go in that direction. If you haven't got people who are capable in the broader sense of that world to get there, you're also not going to get there. That doesn't mean that they need to have all the answers and all the capability when they start. then you can pick up stuff along the way. But capability is so much, you know, there's knowledge, experience, desire, ambition, all of that is in people capability. So when you're describing that, it all sounds so straightforward and makes absolute sense. And I you probably experienced this, but why is it sometimes made so complicated? And the second part to that is also, because this still does happen out there. And I sometimes get why, sometimes it's just because. is that why is this stuff put to the bottom of the priorities rather than the top of the priorities? Hmm. I think it's, there's a couple of, there's a couple of things. Firstly, I think, I don't think it's at the bottom of the priorities in so many places as it used to be. No, I think, think, there's a whole lot of for that. I think, you know, but in, in answer to your question, why is, why is it sometimes lower down the priorities than it probably should be? it's difficult. Well, it's difficult to do in the eyes of many people because the many people who are tasked with doing it, i.e leadership teams of organisations who have got thousand and one things to do and everything else on their mind and, you know, jobs lists as long as your arm and everything else. And this is one of them, right? It's not the only one. It is, in my view, the enabler of all the rest, which is a different, you know, a different perspective that you and I would share. But to the average person who doesn't work in that field, it looks pretty damn complicated. And therefore, And the average person who was making that decision, i.e. senior executives in business, are good at what they do, right? They're successful people for good reason, and that's why they are there. And the risk is they treat the people aspect of their business in the same way as they do all the rest of their business, i.e. like a project. Yeah, or a metric or a measurement or with a set of criteria. It takes me back to my years as an employee engagement consultant. I used to have conversations with organizations and clients then that I used to actively say to them, if you treat your employee engagement program in the same way as you treat every other project, it won't work. Because it is not a project. It's a set of behavioural characteristics. And that isn't a project. Which is why I started working in the world of organizational culture. Because there's the link. To many people, employee engagement is a survey. It's a set of numbers. It's a piece of data that in my world it's not. It is a set of numbers. It is a metric. But more importantly, it does one thing. Employee engagement data set does one thing when it's used well, is it prioritizes the conversations you need to have. That's all it does. Whereas would there be an argument that, and again, I probably get why there's the misunderstanding there sometimes, because maybe it's just not set up in the right way or whatever, is that, dare I say some organizations use it as a kind of a vanity metric. everyone's really happy, we're doing really well. That's it, we don't need to do anything. Yeah, totally. Or they use it, you know, they treat that data as a means of not having conversation. know, engagement data when used well, it serves a singular purpose. As I said, it prioritizes the conversations you need to have with the people who gave you the data in the first place. And if you use it for anything other than that, sooner or later, you're gonna come a cropper. Because what happens then is you get senior leadership teams, small groups of people sat in a big room with a long table in it, making decisions on behalf of big groups of people who are not in that table and trying to interpret a set of numbers, which they don't really understand, on behalf of the big group of people that aren't in the boardroom. And they're not doing that with a bad intent. They're doing that because they're trying to make stuff better, right? But that's the risk, if they treat it like any other metric or any other set of data. And you can't do that. And the same argument almost could be have, because I've definitely come across this, I sometimes, fairly often actually, help organisations with creating values. And where it really goes wrong is where a really small group of people, normally the senior leaders, come up with what the values are, then they plaster them on a wall and go, right, these are our values. What? What is that all about? Yeah, and the rest of the organisation looks at it and think, so what? You want me to be different tomorrow than I was yesterday because you put that on a wall I was with one client who actually had their values up on a wall. And it was like a really big open plan office and on one of the floors, had all of their values up on the wall. And I was doing some leadership stuff with them and I was just kind of, you know, going around chatting to people, you know, getting a vibe for the place. And I hadn't even started working with them actually. It was kind of like a scoping exercise. And I was just sat with somebody, you know, chatting to them about what they do. And I said, what's your favourite value? What value means the most to you? And he went, what values? What are they? I went, those are literally not five yards away from me. I yeah, I wonder what they were. Unbelievable, unbelievable. So you mentioned culture a few times there. So we mentioned engagement values, culture. I think they're both part of all of that big thing. So this is gonna be really tough question. I'm not sure you can answer it. I definitely don't think I could, but I'm gonna throw it out there anyway. You definitely will have an opinion. Is if you could define culture. What would that be? within an organization or a business, what would that be? Or even where there's a group of people that come together under a common cause. a phrase that springs to mind is something that I use in when talking to executives about culture... seeing some of the blank looks on their face when you really start getting into what it is and what it isn't. And a summary statement came to me a couple of years ago and it's this, it's, organization of culture is what's said and never. It's what's, get my own statement right in a minute, it's what's written and never said and said and never written. And it's all that, it's like what you saying about the values on the wall. That's written and never said. And the real culture is what's in the corridors and the conversations in the toilets and the conversations around the coffee machine. That's said and never written. And in amongst those two things, the gap between those two things is where the organizational culture is. Yeah, totally. Wow. So what do you think is really important in order for an organisation to have a good culture? Authenticity. in what sense. in every sense, but primarily starting with the leadership team of the business to just be human. Yeah, that's so important, isn't it? Be human. Yeah. Yeah. And you know, you're a coach the same as I do. And you know, when you're coaching people, you coach, a lot of people come to you from a coaching point of view and you, and they, they don't want to say they act, but they are their job title, right? That's what you get presented with. And actually when you get into the coaching, it's nothing to do with their job title. And you start with often a set of objectives, which are based on, well, here's me and I'm a finance director. can we do some coaching and we start coaching the finance director. And then a couple of hours in, you're no longer coaching the finance director, you're coaching the human being that is the finance director. And it's the same as that. It's just, you know, take the employee out and put the person back in. Stop being a job title. Stop being a set of objectives even. Just start recognizing what you are and what you're trying to achieve and talk about it. So not only is that really a real fundamental of being a leader but of the culture as well, because obviously the leaders drive the culture. What else would you say is important to the culture? I think that lots of culture programs, I think, start at the wrong place. So you were talking about values earlier, right? So your standard sort of dictionary definition of culture change programs or cultural understanding, whatever, you know, organization or culture programs is they'll start somewhere, generally with something that they've already got. So they'll either start with a set of values or a set of objectives, or if they're slightly more advanced, they might have a behaviour framework, remember them? And they might start some of that and they say, right, here's this and here's what the stuff that we've got. we want, you know you would have heard the phrase before, you know, we want a performance culture Craig. That's what we want. I think, no shit, why would you not? you know, no one doesn't want one. I'll tell you that much. you know, no one wants an underperforming culture. So we wanted a performing culture. And the bit that they and they start with the values and say, well, here's the thing that we're trying to do. And we need a culture to walk towards this direction. And that's again. real positive intent and, you know, but the bit that I think a lot of people miss where I start with organizational culture is I start with asking an organization how they want to feel, literally. And we did a, I did a conference last year with an organization that I'm still working with now. And there's 250 people in this business and we asked the entire organization in their conference. how they wanted to feel when they came to work. What a powerful question. And we had a process and we had, there was a stepped process to just walk them through that thought. And they came up with five feelings that they said, yeah, if we are going to be successful in the future, this is an organization under big change, right? And this was part of the conversations that we were having them to manage that big change program. So yeah, how do you want to feel when you come to work? And once they've defined that, and they did in the afternoon, they came up with five feelings that they said, yeah, here's what is really important to us in our future. Then and only then, do we start engaging in that organization, in the conversation that says, okay, now you know how you want to feel. And when the alarm rings on a Monday morning, that's the stuff, right? When you're thinking about what you got to do on a Sunday evening and you're sat in front of your telly and you're thinking about you work here, that's the feelings that we're talking about, those moments. And we don't get that. So they define how they want it to feel. And then and only then do we start thinking, right, okay, what behaviours drive that feeling? What behaviour creates that feeling? and then from them come the values. And from there come, okay, so we've now got, you want to feel like this, you've then defined that this set of behaviours that would make you feel like that or support the organization to feel like that. So therefore what stuff, OD based stuff, what things do we need to put in place to create that behaviour, to drive that feeling. And then, and there's the whole, you know, there's not a whole thing, but there's the starting, the building blocks of an organizational culture. Define how you want to feel. define what behaviours create that feeling, and then define what stuff needs to be in place to drive those things forward. And there's more to it than Where does vision and purpose come into this? So where we're heading, that future, different or better place we want to create, and purpose, why we're doing it, where does that fit in? I get sometimes mixed up with, you know, vision and purpose and mission statements and which one comes first. I'm not, you know, I'm not clever enough to work out that, Craig, I don't think. Do you? I do. So for me, vision is the world we're creating. And the reason it's called vision is because you have to be able to imagine it in your mind's eye. You have to get yourself there, sit there. You have to be able to smell it, hear it, see it, feel it. And it's a permanent place that you want to be. It's not an arbitrary objective like to be the best company in the world. That's nonsense because if, A, you can't measure it, well, it's very difficult to measure, or when you get there, what do do then? So this has to be a a world you're trying to create for me. And when I say world, it doesn't have to be the entire planet. could be your industry, community, whatever. So that's what vision is for me. And it can be very, the vision for me can be very aspirational. So it doesn't have to be necessarily somewhere you're actually gonna get to, but it won't stop you trying to create it in your small way. Purpose is your why. So this is why you're doing it. And the why is about the impact you wanna have on others and the contribution you make to that. So we're going here because of this. And then the value stuff then backs all of that up because they're almost the behaviour vehicle to help you get there. And I think all three of those are absolutely vital. Yeah, no, I'll buy that because if don't you know where you're going and why the hell are you trying to go there in the first place? And if you don't you know where you're going and that mission, that vision is not clear, how are you going to measure anyone against it? Do you remember the golden thread thing we used to do? And I still use a version of that. I think it's genius because it's just so simple. So your vision is where you're heading, the world you're creating. That then filters down into strategic goals. That then filters down into department or area or whatever goals or objectives. That then filters down into the team. Then the team then filters into the individual. So every person can see how how from the very top where we're trying to get to, how that impacts all the way down and how they contribute all the way up. And then the final layer, the foundation layer, is really your purpose and your values. Why we're going there and the values and behaviours that are gonna help us get there. And then all of the objective stuff, that's all like the plans. These are the tasks that we're gonna do, but they don't work without us really understanding why we're going there. and also the behaviours we need to demonstrate day in day out that it's going to help us get there as well. And I think, you I mean, you're talking, you know, you're jogging me memory about all sorts of things that we used to do. you know, we were doing that stuff, what, don't you know, 15 years ago, that sort of is when we were, you know, the genesis of some of those ideas. And we weren't the first by any stretch of the imagination. But we were doing it because of, if we go a long way back into my history, you know, some of the basics of employee engagement research, we'll talk to you about ownership. And if you've got an employee and you are employing that employee to go and do this stuff and you want that employee to do stuff well. one of the things that they need to you know is why. Why am I doing this? And they need to be able to think, okay, well, I'm doing this because my boss is trying to achieve this or the team that I'm working with is trying to achieve this. So I do this stuff on a daily basis to support this group of people who I work with on a daily basis to achieve the stuff that they're gonna do. And this group of people is doing all that stuff because the director or the part of the business that we're part of is trying to achieve this. Okay, and I need to be able to draw that golden thread. And the directorate or the part of the business that I'm part of is doing all that because the organization is trying to achieve this. And therefore I've got this, here's me day to day doing this stuff or this set of tasks because my team is trying to do this, because this is one of the et cetera, et cetera. And it just kind of gets, and if you can't draw that. And I think that's even more and rapidly increasing in importance now than it was even when we were starting to do some of that stuff many, many years ago because of. the change, the generational change and the expectations of a different generation of workforce and what they want from their employers and what they want from their leaders and managers. Getting back to our leadership conversation. because gone are the days where, and even I probably experienced this early on in my career, where you turned up at your job, at the time you started, and you went home at whatever time you finished, and your boss or your manager gave you a task to do, and you just did it. You often wouldn't even you know why you're doing it, you just did it. And that was the way it was. But for me, and for anyone who's listening or watching, if you're a leader, if you're responsible for a team, because I think you can do it at team level, You can do it at department level, organisational level. If you want your people to believe in what you're trying to do, to buy into what you're trying to do, and to give you blood, sweat and tears, which they will if they have this stuff, they have to know why they're doing it. And that why has to be based on an impact on other things, on something bigger than all of you, on that cause. They have to you know what the world you're trying to create. whatever that is, where they're heading to. And in order that people are together, they have to have a set of common values that they all keep each other accountable for. This stuff is not words on a wall or on a website or in a pamphlet. This stuff is really, really important. And as I say, increasingly more important, if you look at some of the research in generational change and what different generations look for from their employer and indeed from their boss, from their manager, it is fundamentally different even than it was 10 years ago. the risk is that lots of organizations are run by people of a demographic that you and I are probably sitting now. And unless that demographic, those people recognize that the majority of their workforce and increasingly their customer base are of a different demographic than they are and share a different life view than you do, you are going to get it wrong pretty bloody quickly. you've got to get out. You've got to be ahead of that curve. Because the other thing this vision, purpose, values, culture stuff does for me, and it may not be that obvious, it may not be that noticeable straight away, but your customers, the people that you're trying to serve, also see this stuff. And that helps attract those people who believe in what you believe, who believe in the world you're trying to create, who believe in your values and how you go about stuff. You know, one of the, and I think he was way before his time actually, the late great Steve Jobs. Kind of leadership wise, it's kind of maybe a bit marmite, because he was apparently very tough to work for, but also very visionary and inspiring from what I understand and have read about him. But he really understood that this stuff was really, really important because not only is it important for the workforce and the people who are actually making the stuff you're trying to do happen. That's why they're important, but actually it's really important for the customer as well. Yeah. And, yeah, and you know, I, you know, I've read some of those books as well. you know, his, his understanding as to what his role was, his was interesting because one of things that he got really, really clear really quickly was boy, was he authentic. It was like, here's me, here's what I'm going to do. Here's the direction that I'm going in. Here's the, here's the vision that I have. Here's the thing that here's my what and here's my why. And here's how I'm going to do it. Yeah. if you want to come along on the ride, then you come along on the ride. But that's how I'm going to do it. And that's why I'm doing it. And if you want to hang on to the coattails for as long as you can hang on, then by all means. But don't try and tell me what I'm not going to do. you know, it was, it was blunt base level authenticity. But I suspect if you were part of that man's senior management team, authenticity was not a conversation you needed to have. Cause I suspect it was put in front of your face very often. And you had the choice then, is this the direction of travel that I want to go? Is this congruent to my values and my vision for me? And if it is, great. And if it's not, it's best for both parties if you're not there then. that, yeah, totally that. Absolutely. But I also, don't know, obviously never obviously had the opportunity to work at Apple or his other businesses. But yeah, absolutely. And, but I, I. I've always had the sense that there was an acceptance of that's the way it was because of what they were trying to do. But I'm not sure it was personal. So they had their standards and they were direct about their standards and where they were going and why they were going there and how they were going to get there. but it was all in pursuit of this amazing thing that they were trying to do. And sometimes that meant being direct to people, but you know, if you need to be direct, then you need to be direct. Do you know what I mean? Absolutely. There's nothing wrong with being direct actually. It's fundamentally necessary. If you're not direct, it's not going to be clear. A book that I reference in work with some of the leadership teams is Radical Candor, Kim Scott's Radical Candor. And the principles behind that, it's not cruel, it's just clear. And if it's not on that balance, then It's one of the other things, isn't it? It's that manipulous insincerity and all that sort of stuff. So I find that really interesting because as you know, I'm not backwards or coming forwards. If something needs to be said, I'll say it. I'll always try and I'm so much better than I used to be. You know, I've definitely learned a lot over the years, but if something needs to be said, I'll just say it and I'll try and say it in as good a way as possible. But yeah, I'll just come out and say it. But the one thing that I do sometimes, what's the word? Yeah, I'll just say struggle with is, Why are people afraid just to say what needs to be said? Yeah, and because they're afraid as to what other people will think or do as a consequence of them saying it. And that's a lack of, I mean, there's only one different reasons, you know, we can't pick the bones out of it. But, you know, in my experience, speaking to leaders who have that challenge sometimes, it's a lack of confidence in what will happen as a consequence. Yeah, okay. And it's that, we talked about authenticity before. I think there's another word that I relate to that is very closely aligned to that. And that's intent. And I think if you, you know, if someone is being crystal clear with you, it's like a piece of feedback. You know, if someone is delivering you some radically candid feedback and you have no doubt that this person is being themselves and you have no doubt that this person's intent. in delivering this feedback is positive. You're not going to have a problem. If someone is not being authentic and they're delivering feedback on, you know, the first word in feedback is only right, you know, don't deliver someone else's feedback. Did I? Well, delivered someone else's feedback. Well, hold that thought, we'll come back to it. I didn't hold against you for long. But yeah, so where was I? Yeah, so authenticity and intent. if yeah, if someone is being themselves, you know it, right? If someone is not being themselves, you also you know it. It's like watching politicians on the telly, isn't it? It's like, you know, come on, you know. Yeah, totally. And I mean, we're not saying that you've got to be a knob about it. You shouldn't be. should, you should deliver it with, you should be honest. You should be direct. You should deliver it with sincerity. Sometimes if you're, if you're speaking to somebody, so, you know, I'm into the colour behavioural profiling, where, people understand their behaviour preferences. So introverted, extroverted thinking feeling. And if you're a red, so extroverted thinker, so very, very direct, very results focus. and you're giving feedback to someone who's green, who is introverted feeling preference, the person who's red has got to be very careful how they do that, because the green person is very self-critical, they're a lot more reserved, they're a bit quieter, they're very people-focused, whereas the red person is very result-focused. So the red person is gonna need to adapt. But likewise, the green person's also got to realize this person's red. So I'm gonna need to adapt a little bit as well here. That might mean, you know, a change in tone of voice, or it might mean slowing down, or it might mean being a bit more patient, or whatever. But we make these little adjustments to make that conversation go as well as possible. But as long as you're not a knob about it, you're not an idiot, and you have that intent, then you can still be direct, you can still be honest. It's just about making those little adjustments. I think that the key to that though, is knowing the person that you are talking to. You know, so when, when you and I work together, I had the luxury at that time of working. I was gonna say for but I never felt like I worked for alongside the woman who I described as the best manager I have had. Yes. a million percent. Absolutely phenomenal, lady. And one of the things that she did is she got to know me. And I remember the very first proper conversation I have with her is she said to me in this first one-to-one first proper conversation we had, and she said to me, Peter, when you do great work and I want to recognize that, what does that need to look like for you? And I thought, what the hell is this woman talking about? Just break that down to things. and look at the language. When you do great work, not if, not perhaps, I'm making the assumption that you are going to. That's one thing that I'm telling you in my phraseology. I'm also telling you in my phraseology, when you do, I'm telling you right now that I want to recognize that. So I'm telling you right from the word go, as your manager, that I want to do that for you. And I am intending to do that. And more important even than that, when I do that, I want to do it in a way that is valuable for you. And that's three things that she taught me in that one sentence. When you do great work and I want to recognize that, what does that need to look like for you? And I sat there and I thought, I'm not entirely sure what you're talking, asking me, Isabelle. And she coached me through the conversation. And I concluded in that conversation that for me, recognition had to be. as close to the moment as possible. it had to be, you know, live time would be great, but Hey, that's not always possible, but don't let it linger. it had to be about my behavioural input. So at the time I was managing a team of 15 odd people or so, as you well know. and most of what I achieved was achieved through other people. was other, it was the other members of the team who did the things. Right. So what I wanted recognition for was my behavioural input. into supporting them or the business to do something with them. And it had to come from someone I respected, because if it didn't come from someone I respected, I probably wouldn't even recognize it. Guess who that person was after a short while, you know. And it had to those three bells. And if it rang those three bells, boy, would that make a difference to me. And she managed me and I think she had four other direct reports at the time. She had that conversation with all five of us and she adapted her leadership style based on those five. conversations. And one example, many, many other things that she did. And to this day, when I put something out there on, you know, occasionally, I will very, very occasionally do the LinkedIn thing. And I might put something on there about what I'm doing. If she makes a comment, boy, does that matter. I haven't seen this woman in number of years. She lives in a different country now. She's, yeah, phenomenal, phenomenal. I remember several conversations that I had with her, absolutely. But getting back to this feedback thing, because, and I think actually the point you're making there, and where I think some people don't maybe appreciate this enough, is that feedback should be used when things are going well, so people can do more of it, or even improve it even further, as well as when things are not going well. So don't just use feedback for when it's not going well. Use feedback when it is going well, so we can do it again or do it even better. But yeah, this feedback thing, and honestly, I'm not blaming you for it, but I do sometimes use this as an example when I'm doing leadership workshops and feedback and stuff, is somebody had some feedback for me about something that had happened like six months previously or whatever, but they didn't want to get, I don't think they wanted to give me the feedback, so you had to. And we went into that little HR room. I was like, why are we going there? And then you said, I have to. No, I have to. And then you said, no, and then you said the worst thing ever for someone like me, I've got to give you some feedback. Because whenever somebody had said, I've got to give you feedback, 9.9 times out of 10, it wouldn't be something good. Yeah, because you like I, most of the time, had had shit managers, right? Or no, managers with positive intent who didn't perhaps think about the messages they were sending. two great managers in my life, you and a chap called Cliff Jerred, who was my manager, well, my manager at the company before you, but not directly before you. Absolutely phenomenal, phenomenal. I again, still talk to him regularly. Absolutely phenomenal human. And yeah, so most of my experience had been really poor, but when you gave me feedback, when it was you giving me it, not through someone else, yeah. All the smoke and mirrors of that occasion. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I actually, really get why it was hard. You would just have a conversation with me about something that needed to be done differently or something that needed or something that was really good. It was just a normal conversation. And I wouldn't even you know I was getting feedback. We would just be having a conversation, right? That needs to be tweaked. Yeah, that could be a bit better or that could be different or that's really good. Keep doing that. And so I didn't even know it was happening. And that was the genius of it. But this one time, and so you said, you first said, I've got to give you some feedback. And then it was, this is not coming from me. Boom, credibility gone. And in that moment, stop Peter, for God's sake stop. It's not going to go well after that statement. the third, the third, the the third mortal sin was it wasn't, it was nowhere near immediate. It happened about six months before. But, but, you know, but you know what? It was actually, it wasn't bad that I got it because I, it, and whatever happened was I think, I think I, I said something that upset somebody and it wasn't a bad thing. it was, somebody had come and asked me something and I was either really busy or really stressed and I probably just dismissed them or maybe I was a bit short with them or whatever, as I can sometimes get and certainly back in those days I could get a little bit like that. So it certainly wasn't intentional and I think I eventually found out who it was and I went and apologised, as I rightly should do, and they went, what? I don't even remember that. And I went, well, I just want to apologise anyway. My boss just told me six months ago, of you don't bloody remember it. But you know what, I think the funny thing was, somebody told the person that told you, the person that told you, then you obviously told me, but it didn't actually come from the original person. Somebody had seen it. And went, that's not very good. And then it just cascaded. So actually, you know what, I actually value the experience because it's, and totally not your fault at all, because the person who saw it should have come and told me. But it's actually a really good example that I use today of actually feedback is a normal conversation. Yeah. And sometimes not even a conversation sometimes, you know, if you, as a manager, if you really you know your people, I think you've got to have, you know, going back to it, Isabelle used to say something, yes, you sit down with her and she said, Peter, need to talk to you about something. What do you think I might want to talk to you about? And I thought, well, it's probably that thing, isn't it? As I was saying, it's probably this. Hmm. And why do we need to have that conversation? Well, probably because I could do something a little bit. And what might we do differently in the future? Well, could probably do something a little bit. And why is that important? Well, it probably helps us as a... Okay. She hasn't given any feedback. She's just asked me a couple of questions. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's what? Yeah. Don't deliver feedback. Just ask questions. Yeah. A great manager of mine once said, a guy called Terry from back in the day. He said to me, Peter, as a manager, when you're delivering people feedback, think about what the feedback says about you. And just think about that. Think about as a manager, when you're delivering feedback, good or bad, said, think about what it says about you. So if it's good, what does it say about you? Says that you've noticed, says that you care, says that you want to provide some opportunity for people to learn from that, says that you want to provide a piece of recognition or whatever. If it's some form of corrective feedback or something that could be done a little bit differently, also, what does it say about you? says that you've noticed, says that you want to support that person. It says that you believe that that person could do something a bit better or a bit different or whatever. It says that you think that that's a valuable use of your time. It says that you think that it's useful, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah. As a manager, when you're thinking about delivering a piece of feedback, whatever it is, think about what it says, the message that it says about you. And there is nothing bad in that at all. Always good. fundamentally be believe because because feedback basically means or one of the definitions if you go to look it up is Information for the purpose of improvement. So whether it's something you want to hear or you don't want to hear All feedback is good and I know it's a bit of a cliche but it is true because you simply cannot get through life and be Successful at stuff if you don't get feedback now it could be from somebody saying something to you. It could be trying some trying something out and it doesn't work, it's all feedback. So I really, I'm almost on a mission to normalise it and to make people really appreciate it because, yeah, sometimes I get feedback and I have got feedback in the past and I'm like, and I'm like, yeah, you know, but I always own it, 100 % own it and I then do something about it. I try and make that thing different or better. So, Yeah, it's so, so important. It really is. it's a long and complicated yet, it's where we started, some of these things you think, that's all a bit complicated. It's not really bloody simple. You just tell you just one person, one human being talking to another human being with positive intent and using some sort of structure or not. Absolutely. And that's the thing. If you are authentic and your intent is positive, people notice that. Yeah. And as a leader and a manager, if you do both of those two things and you are true to yourself and you are consistently doing both of those two things, you won't go far wrong. So circling back to culture, what is the link between culture and feedback? Because I think there's a big one. Specifically feedback or culture and communication. communication, because feedback is part of communication. Yeah. Well, I, yeah, I mean, it's dependent on which books you read and, you know, which psychologists you sort of follow. It's arguably the be all and end all communication and culture, even to the point where is there a difference? you're on fire today, Peter. Or rather, it not a starting point? And I would say all culture starts from a point of communication. Because otherwise it's, you know, and there's a broader brush than that communication as in verbal or communication as in what you see. Or if we think of the broader elements of communication from what you say, what you see and what you behave like, all of them are pieces of, yeah, and what you think. All of that in the broader element of communication. That is the starting point of any culture. Or rather the variance between what you see, think, feel, do and what other people may see, think, feel or do. I think it's the key to everything. we've always been, and actually since I'd been working for you is when I really started learning about it. I always was aware of it, but, I think it's even now, sadly, it's not something that's paid enough attention to is emotional intelligence. know, studies have shown that it accounts for around 87 % of our success, but we only pay attention to it 10 % of the time because most of the time we're on autopilot. Yeah, and that's not going to get smaller, is it? With the onset of AI and everything else, you know, intelligence, I think, is, we categorize intelligence as intelligence and then emotional intelligence is a subset. I think as you go forward, intelligence is just emotional intelligence. And the other stuff is data or knowledge. You don't need data or knowledge. But you do need emotional intelligence. I think it's the key to absolutely everything and I've learned so much about it. I'm a big fan of it. It's probably one of the most, what's the word I need, popular or frequent pieces of work that I do with people, individually or in groups, is understanding and developing and applying emotional intelligence so you can communicate with yourself better. and you can communicate with other people better and build better relationships. Because I honestly believe if you do that, you will be more successful, whether you work in a warehouse, whether you work in a big corporate, whether you are a salesperson, whether you are a leader, whether you're on a sports team, in the military. For me, it is the most important thing. Yeah, totally. And I think there's one element of it that is even the most important element of it, and that's communication. think if you look at any aspect of life, any sector, the best of the best have one thing in common, regardless of what they do, they are great communicators. Is that, did I get that from you? Because I've been saying that for years. I think I'm, that must be another thing I got from you. Possibly, with the possible exception of premiership football players. might give it. But in the main, yeah, all the best of the best, be they a politician, be they an actor, be they're whatever. The best of the best are great communicators and they do two things. One, they have a natural talent, I think the best of the best probably have a natural talent. However, they apply it. They think about it. They practice it. Yes. learn from it, they recognise its importance more for and therefore they apply themselves into the delivery of it. Do you think it can be developed? Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. work in my work You mentioned your colour profiling in my work. i do lots of work on communication at individual level and team level and organisational level. And at all three of those levels, I use a tool called VoicePrint. yeah, I've seen that, it's a really good one that. Love it. a voice print is an online diagnostic that physically shows people their natural communication pattern. And as a consequence of that, it is the only thing that I've come across in my working world that gives you the opportunity to think, right, if this is how I naturally communicate, it's this shape, right? This afternoon, I'm going into this meeting and I have this intention for this meeting. I'm trying to get this from me. This is what I naturally do. going to fit with that intention? Or might there be some aspects of my communication that I might need to dial up or dial down and get close to aligning with my intent? And it's the only thing that I've come across, as I say, that physically shows that. And I'm qualified in a whole variety of different psychometric tools and profiling tools. And in this one, I learned more about myself from this one than all the rest of them. Yeah. for me, the, and you know, I'm not as obviously familiar as it with you, but I have seen the voice print one i think it's really good. But the colour profiling one, if you use it as it's meant to be used, absolutely does something very, very similar. So it's about you understanding your preferred behaviours, your preferred communication, and then how you can adapt that to the situation and the people. That are around you and the situation you're in and the people that are around you and also then trying to recognize Those those preferences in in others. So like I said if you get a red and the green they're direct opposites to me That would be a tricky conversation blue and the yellow direct opposite traditionally a tricky conversation. But there's lots of other combinations and then it's just about adapting that approach and a million million million million million million percent works It absolutely works to the extent that, and I know i mentioned this on, on our, on most, one of our recent episodes, I bought one of these, these, assessment reports for, for Pam. It happened to be on her birthday. It wasn't on her birthday for her birthday, but I bought one for Pam. and that's, yeah, we talk about it all the time, all the time. And it helped because we're direct opposite me and Pam, completely, we couldn't be more opposite. and, and they say, but actually when you understand each other, you become a more, a more solid unit, a better team. because you understand how each other ticks. Yeah. And that's what all these things do. Whatever, you know, profiling tool, you know, I think there's only one thing that's important with regardless of whichever one you're using. It's a piece of self-awareness, isn't it? And then that's all they do, you regardless of which one you use, they give you an opportunity to learn something about yourself and therefore create a little bit of self-awareness and therefore create a little bit of a plan as to what you might use, how you might use that. Or not, as the case might be, you know, sometimes. Totally. So, I mean, you've given me so much, and I am going to embarrass you because I you know you hate it, but you have, honestly, Peter, you've given me so much wisdom over the years. You are one of two or three people that have helped me get to where I am today. And I really thank you for that. I really value the friendship and the mentorship that you've given me over the years. And I've mentioned some pieces of advice, what we've talked about here and I've mentioned them on previous episodes. But what would be your biggest piece of advice that you would give somebody, actually not a leader or not necessarily leader, but somebody who works in our field. So learning and development, organisational development, what would be the biggest piece of advice you'd give them? someone who works in our field, that's interesting. Don't try and be someone else. Be yourself. Yeah, I can. So when I started in this game, right, you so, you know, I spend my time doing a whole variety of things now, either coaching people or working as a consultant, or sometimes standing in a training room and doing that thing. And back in the day when I was standing in a training room doing that thing, I had one or two people who I looked at, who I was working with at the time. working alongside and I thought, you're good at that, you know. No, wasn't. And I looked at some of it, looked at these people and I thought, yeah, maybe I'd quite like to do that. I'd like to be able to do that. And I see the reaction that they get and the learning that they create in other people thinking what a fabulous way to spend time. I'd to be able to do that. And I made the mistake of thinking, okay, well, what I'll try and do is I'll try and do it like them. That's such good advice. And now, years on from that, I don't try that at all. I am so comfortable when I'm stood in front of a group of people now, because it is an opportunity for me to just be totally authentic. And I, you know, I remember also having, you know, getting a piece of feedback once that says, you know, as a trainer, when you walk into the room, leave your ego outside the door, because it's not about you. It's about the people. such good advice. Yeah, I would agree. see, I don't agree with it anymore. No. I think you should absolutely leave your ego at the door as a trainer. it depends how you judge, how you're making a judgment on ego, I suppose. But what I took that is to leave yourself outside the front door. And now, I I sit in training rooms and I'll tell stories now, which will probably come in some advice to you. And as I've got more and more comfortable within that environment, I'll do more and more of it. And the feedback that I get has got increasingly better as the years have gone on because I do more of that. And it's just because I'm being more myself and I'm not trying to be someone else. So I think the ego. it your way, I guess is a short summary. Don't do it like anyone else does it, do it how you do it. Yeah, so I mean I've got snippets from people over the years. I a million percent have whether that's you or other people You know Tim Keener, Andy Granston a few other people i was gonna say famous people but they're not famous They should be absolute legends. And i've got snippets from them definitely But you're really but you're so right. You have to ultimately be your version You have to be yourself So, you know, one thing I got from Andy Granston was just his ability to move around the room and draw people in just by asking them little questions and stuff like that. But Andy did it as Andy did it, and I do it as I, but I do that as I do it, it's me. So that authenticity is absolutely important. But in terms of the ego thing, I think there's something in that. You do have to be you, but you cannot think that you are the most important person. totally. The most important people in that room or in that coaching session or whatever, if it's an individual, is the other person. You do not bring, you do not project your stuff. You can share your experiences. You can tell stories when you're facilitating training or even if you're coaching and the person wants that and they would value your perspective. But it cannot be about you and your agenda. It has to be about them and you cannot think that you are the best and most important person in that room. No, no. And that's something that I've, you know, I've learned a lot about that in the future in terms of, one of the things that I miss, you know, I don't miss, back in the day when I had a proper job, I don't miss managing people at all. I don't miss a whole variety of working in corporate life. In fact, there's very few things that I miss in working in corporate life. But one thing that I do miss is I used to sit next to people of different generations than me. well, we're similar aren't we? How much do similar. I've got a few years on you, But I used to sit with new people who were a fundamentally different demographic and a different generation. And therefore, just by osmosis, you used to learn so much from the perspectives of different people of different age groups, et cetera, et cetera, and different backgrounds than yourself simply by working in big open plan offices. You know, I sit here now in my office in the garden that is just me in it and I'm either here or I'm in some sort of coffee shop pretending to work and doing that sort of stuff or I'm on the client side doing something, you know, with them. But I do miss, yeah, just sitting and working alongside people who are very different than me and seeping and that learning that you get just from being around those. And me being a natural introvert, even I appreciate that. And the one thing since, cause I think I started my business what a couple of years after you. And the one thing that I miss is it can, even though I really don't have a problem working by myself clearly, being naturally introverted, the loneliness is really, really hard. And I think the message I want to give there is for those of you that are part of a team, and maybe you're still doing this hybrid working, do not underestimate the power of being with people. The ideas that you can generate, the brainstorming you can do, the fun you can have, or just having somebody sitting there with you. You don't even have to talk. I mean, we used to have that little office, didn't we? At the back there. just having that somebody there and... You know, just, yeah, people do not underestimate that because when it's not there, you really notice it. It's a very powerful thing when it's not there. So don't underestimate the team. And that's the power of going back to where we started about organizational culture. What's said and never written and written and never said. It's all that stuff. It's all that stuff. That's where the value is. It is. Wow. What a conversation, my friend. Thank you so much. Seriously, absolutely amazing. It has been long overdue and we could literally talk for hours, couldn't we? So yeah, we could, couldn't we? Maybe we should do a spin-off. chapters. Yeah, that's an idea. But no, thank you. We'll absolutely have you back on again. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on and again, I know I've said it, but seriously, thank you for everything you've done for me because I wouldn't be sat here if it wasn't for you and a few other people. So thank you for that. Well, you know, I'll take it with the intent that it was given. Thank you, Craig. You can give me a compliment whenever you want, Peter. Yeah, I'm trying to think of one mate, I can't Absolutely brilliant, absolutely brilliant. And on that bomb shell, everyone, thank you for watching and listening. Please give us a like, a follow, or subscribe on whatever channel you are listening and watching on. It's been an absolute pleasure to have Peter here. I hope you all enjoyed it and got as much value as we clearly did. And yeah, join us next time. See you later, everyone. And there we have it, the latest episode of the Living Your Learning podcast and the first in our series of the special guest sessions. We really hope you enjoyed it. And don't forget, please give us a like, a follow or a subscribe on whichever channel you are listening or watching on. And we really look forward to you joining us next time.
