The Living Your Learning Podcast
Exploring all things leadership, learning and everything in between; The Living Your Learning Podcast is the place for top chats, awesome insights and a splash of inspiration that will light the way to awesome leaders, amazing teams and even a better you!
The Living Your Learning Podcast
Episode Five | Motivation Special Part Two | Igniting Inner Drive
Keywords:
Motivation, Leadership, Employee Engagement, Developing Motivation, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, Workplace Culture, Psychological Safety, Self-Esteem, Personal Growth, Belonging, Recognition, Workplace Motivation.
Summary:
Step into an enlightening conversation about motivation in our latest podcast episode. We delve into the intricate layers of motivation, examining the unseen challenges employees face daily and how these obstacles impede their ability to succeed at work. Craig McHugh and Lisa Butler explore the idea that motivation isn’t merely an internal drive but is influenced by external circumstances and workplace environments.
Using Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs as a guiding framework, they unravel how lacking fundamental needs can manifest as disengagement and low energy levels for employees. Highlighting real-world stories, they illustrate the necessity for leaders to acknowledge and support the whole person sitting across from them in meetings.
The discussion also leads to vital strategies for creating a culture that fosters intrinsic motivation rather than imposing external pressures. As they transition into personal reflections, the hosts emphasize the importance of recognizing small victories and the beneficial practice of self-reflection to track growth. With actionable advice and heartwarming stories, this episode offers valuable insights and a fresh perspective on what it takes to cultivate a motivated workforce.
So join us for this thoughtful exploration, perfect for anyone keen on improving workplace dynamics and personal motivation. Don’t forget to engage by sharing your thoughts and experiences with us! Subscribe, rate, or leave a review to join in the conversation!
Takeaways:
Employers need to understand the struggles of their employees.
Creating a motivating environment is a collective responsibility.
Maslow's hierarchy of needs applies to workplace motivation.
Recognition and appreciation are crucial for employee engagement.
Psychological safety is essential for motivation.
Belonging and social connections enhance workplace satisfaction.
Self-esteem plays a significant role in motivation.
Personal growth requires courage and vulnerability.
Reflection on progress is important for motivation.
Download:
Hello and welcome to the Living your Learning podcast. Exploring all things leadership, learning and everything in between. The Living your Learning podcast is the place for top chats, awesome insights and a splash of inspiration that lights the way to awesome leaders, amazing teams and even a better you. And this episode, part two of our motivation special. We'll be deep diving into this thing called motivation even further, so we really hope you enjoy this one. Hey everybody, and welcome back to this latest episode edition. You choose what it is of the Living your Learning podcast with me, Craig McHugh and the amazing Lisa Butler. So, Lisa, last time we were talking about motivation and it was super, super interesting, and we think there's probably a bit more to talk about around this subject and it might, you know, lead to other things. So, yeah, where should we go to other things? So, yeah, where should we go? Where are we going with this now?
Lisa Butler:So I feel like we could apply this to the workplace and helping leaders to understand what does Maslow's hierarchy of needs, what does that motivation triangle look like in the workplace? What kind of things might they hear to give someone an indication of where their people are at and, therefore, what might they need in order to get to the next step? Because, um, I feel like we are asking, we're asking people to come to work and give a hundred percent, when the reality is that most of people are not even waking up with 100. Some people are waking up at 20, 30, 40 energy capacity, and so we're asking them to come into work, give us 100, 100 focused on the goal, without any consideration of purposefully retaining some capacity for when they go home, for their lives. And quite often people have no context of what their people are going through or have no understanding of where they sit on that triangle.
Lisa Butler:So I would be saying to you Craig, you know you're coming to work, you're disinterested, you're not particularly motivated, you're always late, not realizing that actually you can't afford the mortgage payments on your house because your wife has just left her job and your mum's just gone into dementia care, so that's costing you £3,000 a month and you're desperately worried about money and keeping your family housed and safe and warm. If I don't have that context context you're coming to work feeling exhausted and desperately, desperately anxious and worried, potentially depressed, with the load of that. And yet I'm asking you to focus in. And why aren't you motivated?
Lisa Butler:so I feel like there's a disconnect between, potentially between employers and employees.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, and my brain is going I love all of this stuff. I love it. So there's a few things I probably want to get out. But, yeah, I absolutely love this stuff. And I just want to reiterate, particularly from a work context and as a teammate, a colleague or even as a leader and a manager stop trying to motivate other people. What we have to do and everyone is responsible for this, not just the leaders or the managers is create an environment where people can feel motivated. Intrinsic motivation is much more powerful than that carrot or stick approach. So stop trying to motivate people. Instead, focus on what you can do to contribute to or create an environment where people can be motivated, and it might have a slightly different flavor for others, for different people.
Craig McHugh:The other thing that was in my mind was this and this actually happened years ago I can't remember how long ago it was and I sometimes give an example in my leadership workshops and stuff, particularly when we talk about, you know, motivation. And it was this and I'm going to paraphrase it an awful lot because it was a long time ago and I can't quite remember all the detail but basically, something went out on LinkedIn where there was this guy who just wrote an open letter along the lines of he'd fallen on hard times. He'd had a really, really, really good job, but he'd lost his house. His family had left him, didn't want to know him. He'd fallen on really hard times and he was living in a tent on a roundabout, which just breaks my heart. And the letter was along the lines of I will paint your fence, I will mow your lawn, I will take your dog for a walk. Can somebody just give me an opportunity, a chance?
Craig McHugh:So if we think about the motivation pyramid or Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Where was he? He was not even on level one because he was living in a freaking tent on a roundabout. So those physiological needs food, water, shelter, warmth, rest he didn't have none of it, definitely didn't have security, he definitely didn't have belonging, and well, we, it's not even worth going to self-esteem and self-actualization because that was definitely not going to happen and anyway. So it went, it went, it went wild and and there was something that came out months later where he he had somewhere to live and he had a job and he was slowly but surely moving back up the pyramid. You know, when this came out there was obviously no reference to the pyramid. That wasn't.
Craig McHugh:The point I'm trying to make is I kind of linked it to the pyramid as a really good example of how people can be at different places on the pyramid and what they do need to do to move up, and it's just very quickly. The other thing that reminds me of I was coaching somebody last year, coaching, and we're talking about motivation, and we went through the motivation pyramid and again it's like a million light bulbs went. You know, he went. Oh my god, no wonder they all feel horrible and they're not doing any work and they're demotivated. And I said why? He said because, again, they're not even at level one, craig, and one of the reasons they weren't in level one is because their actual physical work environment was so shocking. It was horrible. Their office was horrible, it was falling apart, it was leaking, it was dangerous, you know cables everywhere and so on and so forth.
Craig McHugh:And if anyone's ever worked or lived in somewhere that's not very nice, just just think about how it impacted, how motivated you felt. Now you might have been motivated to get out of there, but if you've worked in some in an environment that's not very nice physically. I worked in an office building once where the first floor gents' toilets looked like the toilet at the start of Trainspotting. Do you know the film Worst toilet in Scotland? People used to go home at lunchtime, just use the bathroom. It was that bad. But if you've ever worked in a place like that, it really impacts your motivation. You just don't want to be there. So yeah, there's so much stuff going off in my head and we can relate to, relate to this yeah, it's awesome, do with that what you will.
Lisa Butler:So, um, on a different level, I was just minded I was going to show you a picture, right, let me see it is that you yeah?
Craig McHugh:yeah wow, you look so different so this one, this one here.
Lisa Butler:I was in the early stages of cancer. I had chronic, untreated complex PTSD. I had severe depression, severe anxiety, and I was trying to run my business. I had an 18-month-old, a seven-year-old, trying to keep the house clean, trying to prove myself as a good mum. Trying to keep the house clean, trying to prove myself as a good mum, because my internal messaging is that this is what good mums do and this is what bad mums do, and my concept of myself was I only bring value to this house when I bring money in. And I absolutely was in no mental or fit state to do any of that kind of stuff.
Lisa Butler:But it was all underpinned by a real sense of I can't tell anyone how I feel because I would be a bad person. People would you know, people would think this, that and the other about me. And what I realized recently is like, if we overlay this with the, the motivation triangle, but also thinking about burnout and how prevalent that is in the world and the workplace at the moment, it wasn't that my body had shut down.
Lisa Butler:I ignored my body at every single level, but my brain had shut down. I ignored my body at every single level, but my brain had shut down. So I was unable to think straight or to make decisions which were good for my. I could look after my children, but it was exhausting me, Like I was utterly, utterly running on empty. And yet, you know, I still would be like I need to go for a run. I'll feel better if I go for a run, Yet you know I still would be like I need to go for a run. I'll feel better if I go for a run. Or I just remember this hustle of trying to do more, do more, do more, because then I'll feel better. But actually my brain was just screaming out please, fucking stop, Just stop.
Craig McHugh:Yeah.
Lisa Butler:Skin, my body, all of it and I think that, from a leadership perspective, my body, all of it and I think that, from a leadership perspective, understanding this model, overlaying it with the fact that your people in front of you are human beings who are having a lived experience which you might not understand.
Lisa Butler:But actually, if we start looking at the people in front of us as, okay, statistically, one in four of you are struggling like, or literally can't get in here today, like a nine out of 10 of you are struggling with stress and one in four of you can't cope with that stress. And I'm not quite sure what the exact statistics are, but at least one person in this organization is thinking about taking their life right now. Okay, so if we look at the financial situation, probably 50 of you are struggling to pay the bills, like can we come to our before we even open our mouths as leaders? Can we come? With the context of that in the background? Because then we might be like we're not inviting a pity party, but what we're saying is I see you, I know you've got stuff going on, I know that you have life going on, and what I'm asking you to do is this how much capacity do you have? To give me that today yeah, absolutely, and I think.
Craig McHugh:I think the same could go for colleagues and teammates as well. Yeah, so is it worth just quickly going through the pyramid and just briefly describing how? Because I think there's two ways of using it and looking at it. There's the at work way, or what it applies to in work, and what it applies to in your personal life as well, and they're each going on at the same time.
Craig McHugh:So, yeah, so, starting off with the bottom one, the first one, which is physiological needs, which Maslow says is about food, water, shelter, warmth and rest. So, if you apply that to the work situation, if people are working 16 hours a day, if they're replying to emails in the middle of the night, if they don't get any breaks in the middle of the night, if they don't get any breaks during the day, or feel like they can't have any breaks during the day, if and don't underestimate this I worked somewhere once where they um, they changed the tea bags and the, the brand of coffee and the hot chocolate, um, and people were not happy. In fact, I think the engagement score went down that year. Just little things like that can make a difference. Um, have you got anything to add to that level, lisa?
Lisa Butler:yeah. So I'm just looking at a really good chart which I'll send over for the show notes. But when you've got somebody working or somebody who is in survival mode is unlikely to be engaged. So they are generally going to be more demotivated and their attitude might be I'm here for the money, I'm leaving on the dot, I'm not satisfied with the job. They might show up sort of just generally dissatisfied with an awful lot of stuff. They're not excited by their work. They're clock watching and you know they're critical and they're not excited by their work. They're clock watching and you know they're critical and they're really dysfunctional and bringing the team down, yep absolutely, and I've forgotten what I was going to say there.
Craig McHugh:It'll pop back in my head. So, no, yeah, a million percent. That because, yeah, that was it. The survival mode? Um bit, because you know, the pyramid is about what motivates us, and as we meet each level, we are then motivated to meet the next level. So once our basic physiological needs are on there, we can go right.
Craig McHugh:There's something still missing. What is it? Okay, it's safety needs, so I'm now motivated to meet those and so on and so forth. But if you're stuck in pure survival mode and that is all you're worried about, you are at the depths of your motivation and that ain't going to be a good place for anyone to be. So it's about recognizing, you know where people are at, what you can do to support them, and it might be just an outside of work thing, but is there anything that's going on in the workplace that's contributing to that? That's going on in the workplace is contributing to that. You know, like hours, like, um, you know, sending emails in the middle of the night, like really crappy physical working conditions because they do still exist, um, and stuff like that and I and um, I think also in this situation leaders are.
Lisa Butler:I think the individuals are simply asking to be seen and their experience is validated. So it's not that you need to own and fix all their problems, but actually, as a leader, just seeing your people. You know, john, I know you've got a lot of stuff going on right now. How are you doing and what do you need from today? It's just that I see you You're a human being and I see you 's. It it's not big absolutely.
Craig McHugh:And then we move on to the safety level. So this is not just about physical safety or health and safety. We've got a workplace thing going on and that could be you know their immediate physical environment and their workstation or you know the the equipment they have to use and stuff like that. But I think a big thing for this is psychological safety and job safety as well and how that might be impacting people yeah, and I think that safety correlates with security in the workplace.
Lisa Butler:Yes, so again, your people are going to be on the demotivated side here because they're and and not as disengaged, but still on the disengaged side, on sort of on. And this is, and their thought process might be along the lines of I'm interested in overtime I've got they might have more sick days than they should have. Poor working conditions. I don't like my manager, I don't feel safe, I don't like this environment, I don't like my job, but I'm getting on with it because I have to pay the bills, because otherwise I'm going to lose my house.
Craig McHugh:Yeah.
Lisa Butler:So so this is the doing, what's expected, and they're just not forthcoming, they just turn up.
Craig McHugh:They're not, they're not giving you 100 perhaps. Yeah, absolutely, you know it could be. It could be behaviors where people feel marginalized, left out, ignored, bullied, even you know. All of that comes into this as well. And what I'm also starting to think, lisa, which I probably not quite appreciate I think I've always been aware of it, but not maybe appreciated it but there is such a link between the levels isn't there, and they really intertwine and have an impact on each other, these levels as well. Because if we think about the next level, the belonging level, so this is about you know being around people. This is about you know being around people. This is about being social. It's about family, friends, relationships. It can be about love. It can be about being part of a cause, being part of a team or a club or a society. There's so many different things Having a purpose to work towards, a common set of values to work towards. So that definitely has applications in work and away from work as well, and one will impact the other.
Lisa Butler:Yeah, and this social element of that triangle means that your people are now being they're more motivated. There's that sense of knowing that there's something bigger. They might feel like they're almost engaged, but there's times when they're not, because they've still got stuff in the background. You know they're proud to work here, but they wouldn't necessarily shout it from the rooftops or yeah if a better offer came along then I might be tempted, but there are no real career prospects here. But it's a really nice place to work.
Craig McHugh:It's okay yeah, yeah, it's that. It's that feeling part of something, isn't it, that you believe in. But can I throw something out there as well? And I, and I think this really has an impact and maybe it's always been there to a certain extent, but certainly certainly since covid and I'm not blaming covid, but people work from home a lot now they're behind a screen. They might not physically see anyone all day. They might, they might talk to people on teams or zoom or whatever, but but it's very isolating.
Craig McHugh:Do you think there's there's an argument that this actually has a negative impact on this belonging level, because the only contact we have is maybe through a message or a vid or a video screen or whatever, and you don't have that real in-person connection. And I think for some people, particularly introverts out there, you get so used to that that then the actual interaction feels uncomfortable. Like for me, I have social anxiety. It makes me feel really uncomfortable, but weirdly, when I don't get it I feel really demotivated and then when I do have it, I feel better, butivated, and then when I do have it, I feel better but I feel uncomfortable with it at the same time. It's a real mishmash of stuff. But do you think there's enough? Do you think that part has a part to play?
Lisa Butler:so, yes, what I'm thinking and wondering is it is really easy to be disconnected behind a screen, but it's also quite simple to help people feel connected by simple reach out, simple not just a quick cursory text message, but a but, a. How are you really the?
Lisa Butler:the actual making an effort thing. I've never worked remotely within an organization. My only experience was, um, when I was on maternity leave from the army and there was that period where, well, basically nobody checked in with me. And then there was like a period where I was returning to work but nobody called ever at any point to just check in and say how are you doing?
Lisa Butler:How are you? I just thought I'd give you an update, let you know what we're all up to. You know we really miss you, or what do you need? Or I thought I'd send you this, that sense that you're valued and we're thinking yeah, yeah. And I think that might be missing for some people or in some organizations yeah, I would totally agree with that.
Craig McHugh:And again, I think I mentioned it in the last episode that isolation thing, that doing stuff by yourself all the time thing, that really impacts my, my motivation. It really does. And again, I think one well, for me, one of the reasons I do this with you is so I can have awesome interactions and conversations with an awesome like-minded person and I can chat about this stuff and get free coaching. But, no, it does it really. It really helps with where I am on that pyramid. So, yeah, no, I think this is such an important level, such an important level. What's the next level? Self-esteem, yeah, so this one is about feeling like you're achieving, you're meeting goals, that you have the respect of others and stuff like that. So, yeah, this is a really important one because I think we, we all want to feel that we are achieving stuff and we're moving forward.
Craig McHugh:But I remember a conversation I had the other day or a few weeks ago with somebody where they felt they weren't moving forward and I said, okay, so think, think about all the things you've done in the past few years. What are they? I've done this, I've done this, I've done this, what? And you haven't progressed. All right, yeah, because they felt like they haven't. So it was impact, impacting their motivation. But when they actually realized, and they, they reflected and they and they and they, they thought a bit deeper about it. Actually, they were making great progress and I've had so many conversations, so many different people about it, even even myself. If you look back over the past year, you think, oh, that wasn't a very good year, didn't do much, um, and in fact I did at the end of last year and I was like, well, actually, I set up my own learning platform and set up the podcast with Lisa and I've learned this and I've learned that what's not good about that, what's not to feel good about that?
Lisa Butler:And isn't there a piece there again about the importance of self-reflection? Because if we're always moving forward, always looking at the next big thing, we're not pausing to celebrate those small miles. The big stuff doesn't happen without the small milestone things happening along the way. It's like we went oh, I ran a marathon. Well, done me not remembering that we've literally run thousands of steps in training to be able to run the marathon do you think recognition comes in here as well.
Craig McHugh:So from from you know, whether you, whether you're a teammate, a colleague, a leader or a manager, that it's really important to not only help people realise it for themselves, but to also to recognise them, because some people don't like doing it or some people just aren't very good at it. So I think you know, just recognising people, that yeah, it's that point you made earlier about seeing people and hearing them and going. Do you know what I've noticed? I've noticed how hard you're working. I've noticed the progress you're making. I'm noticing the effort you put in um, and I'm not and I'm not saying this next bit to to be, you know, look at me, aren't I amazing? But it was living your learnings.
Craig McHugh:Eight, eighth birthday last Saturday, and I actually forgot and went to where'd she go? I think she went to the hairdressers to get her hair done and she sent me a text message Happy birthday, lyl, happy eighth birthday. I'm like, oh my god, I completely forgot. Anyway, so I put a post on LinkedIn and I got some lovely, lovely reactions. So if anyone did a comment or whatever, then thank you so much, but just some of the and I won't say what they aren't. But some of the comments on there it was again going.
Craig McHugh:It was going back to that why bit? And remembering why I'm doing this and where I'm trying to take this and the future I'm future place I'm trying to create, and some of the comments on there were like oh my god, I haven't, I haven't thought about that in so long because you can just, it's so easy to just go through the motions and to tick things off right, I've done that on to the next, I've done that on to the next, and so on and so forth, and some of it was like oh my god, that is why I do it that, right there.
Lisa Butler:I feel like maybe in these management books there should be a lexicon for appreciation, because I think so often we just don't have the language to know what to say. At the very basic level, it's a thank you, but being able to say I noticed, I appreciated, yeah. And then helping people to really get a genuine sense that they are valued, important, that they are, you know, they are really an intrinsic part of that team and that they are not, their efforts are not invisible. Then you get an engaged member of staff, then you've got someone who starts to exhibit leadership, someone who's motivated, and a really good way of thinking about yourself as a leader is you are the enabler of engagement.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, a million percent, yeah. But then you also get Lisa. You get somebody who will give you blood, sweat and tears, who will drop stuff to come to the aid of a teammate who's really struggling, who's got to miss a deadline and and is not going to do without your help. You get all of that stuff as well.
Lisa Butler:Yeah, for me do you know, while I'm sat here, probably I'm just thinking how useful would it be for managers to be able to sit with their people and say where are you on here right now? Just so I can get you don't have to tell me what's going on but just to give me a sense of where are you? Where do you think you sit on here? And then let's talk about this, because you because there's also an element of you might be masking, you might be putting on this very brave face, but in the background, you know, it's not. Not everyone's going to come to work all disheveled and, you know, having it looking like they're having a bad time. Some people will just put a face on, and that was me.
Lisa Butler:I remember a doctor saying is complaining or blah blah blah, but is dressed nicely and wearing makeup, her hair is done is what she wrote, and I was. That was her judgment of me was that I looked all right, but I was absolutely a freaking mess inside that is nonsense. Yeah, wow so it's like being past it.
Craig McHugh:Let's see past it so it's funnily, it's funny that you should ask. You mentioned getting people leaders to to ask where are you. So I I have happened to create and I'll see if I can find a way everyone to put it in the show notes. I'll see if I can attach the document, but I have a handout that I've created. There's a simple pyramid you and all you have and there's and there's also a space on the handout for notes and all you have to do. And if you're a leader or a manager doing it with your team, it will be one of the best one-to-ones or coaching sessions you have with them.
Craig McHugh:Or you can just do it by yourself it's really good or with a trusted family member or your other half is. You simply just work out where you are on the pyramid and then, using the note spaces, you write down where you are and why that's really important and then you create a smart action that you can take to move to the next level and beyond. So smart, being very specific, measurable. Think about whether it's achievable or not or what might get in the way. The r that I used is resourced but relevant. You can use that if you want, but I use resource. But so what do you need, what resource do you need, and then set a time limit to it so you create a really great, smart action that you can then review and go back to um to help you move up the pyramid. So yeah, I'll drop that in the show notes if I can.
Lisa Butler:It's a really simple, great exercise to do with other people or to do by yourself and then lastly, at the top the pyramid, which is where we all think we're heading, is that highly engaged self-actualisation, full potential, huge capacity when our needs are being met, then we can really pursue what we want the most and show up with the most amount of resourcing.
Craig McHugh:Absolutely A million percent. So for me, you can't get there unless you've done the others at all. I don't think you can skip a few, and I think it's also about when you do get there. And for me, how do you know that you're there? So I'd like to ask you that in a minute, lisa. But for me, how do I know that I'm there, that I'm experiencing the world I want to create, even if it's just a little bit, in some small way that I've brought? I'm bringing my purpose, my why, to life, and I've done that through my values, the behaviors that I want to do every day. That's how I know that I'm there and I have had occasions where I've been there.
Craig McHugh:I was very fortunate enough to go on an assignment to Australia a couple of years ago. One of my clients invited me out to attend one of their conferences and I did a leadership workshop there and we talked about motivation, we talked about the pyramid and someone in the audience, someone in the group the audience, said Craig, where are you? And I literally stopped me in my tracks and I went and I looked at the, stopped me in my tracks and I went and I looked at the pyramid up on the slide and I went and I actually got a bit teary at the time. I said, oh my God, I'm right at the top. And they went why? Because I'm stood here doing this with you guys. That's it. So how do you know, lisa, when you're there and how do you stay there?
Lisa Butler:So I, when you're there, and how do you stay there?
Lisa Butler:So I just wanted to acknowledge what you've just said, like I've just had a really visceral response to you, saying that to me, because, like, just again, just really celebrating, like and recognizing the work that you have done, not the tapping away at the computer but the work for yourself to get to that point and it's a journey that I really recognize because I had that realization recently too.
Lisa Butler:And just that, recognizing how much has been done, how many gains have been made where I was and where I am, what I had nothing, what I had nothing of, and now I have so much of that that I have the capacity to give, like that, that is such a beautiful, beautiful moment and it deserves to be really acknowledged. And what I really feel like in society is that we don't celebrate that piece. It's like, well, look at him or look at her, but it's like freaking hell, man, I have bust my guts, literally. I have been on the floor trying to wade through treacle to get to the next step. So I can be not even with the intention of running a business, but just being okay in this world, like that takes so much effort.
Craig McHugh:Um, yeah, so I'm just thank you, I appreciate that, I appreciate that. And no, you're right. And when you, when you, when you can see or acknowledge, or recognize that you're bringing your why to life and that you're you're creating the world that you want to be in and that you're doing that through the values that you cared really deeply about, that is, uh, it's a you know I've, I've, is it every day? No, it's not. I'm, you know, I'm not gonna sugarcoat it, but I've had it, I've had it a few times. That realization, and it's one of the most amazing, powerful things.
Craig McHugh:And here's the thing, it's not even necessarily about me, it's about the stuff that's happened as a result of it. If that makes sense, it's not. You know, look at me, I'm on the top of the pyramid and aren't I brilliant? It's not that, but it, if that makes sense, it's not. You know, look at me, I'm at the top of the pyramid and aren't I brilliant? It's not that, but it's that realization of everything that's come before it and that, yeah, you've brought all of that stuff to life and you can touch it and see it and feel it, and, yeah, that's what it is for me. But, yeah, it's super hard to stay there, super hard. Am I at the top right right now? I'm not sure where? Yeah, I'm not sure at the minute.
Lisa Butler:So, yeah, it's super hard to stay there so I know when I'm there, because I have capacity.
Craig McHugh:I have and I am able to easily access my joy yeah, oh, that is, you've hit the nail on the head there. So you just get rid of all of the crap and all of the baggage and all of the nonsense and you can just sit there or stand there or just be, just be in utter contentment and joy. And it's not anything external that this really comes from, really deep inside there, where you're just being and you're so content and joyful. For that I'm getting goosebumps.
Lisa Butler:I'm you probably can't see it I'm quite teary at the moment when we talk about joy. For me, that is not la-di-da-di-da, that kind of joy. It is a deep contentment with just being okay with what is and getting a real sense of fulfillment from whatever that is, without feeling guilty, having to push it's just whatever that looks like for you. I just reflect on how you know it's taken me nearly half a century to find it and to really know where it is and to access it and also to really recognize what are my patterns that take me away from that. How do I know? How? How can I have an internal warning system like you're moving away, you're moving back into safety needs. Okay, what was that? Okay, it was this. What do I need? Okay, I'm going to put that in place. And, yeah, I really recognize that I'm coming from a deep place of privilege.
Lisa Butler:We were talking to my daughter about this last night. But I have the resources in my partnership with my husband to be able to have the conversations. I need the financial resources to seek the counselling or the support or whatever it is, and for a long time, my model of the world was one that did not have those things. So I also know the other side of that, which really feeds into my deepest why. But it's also about having a capacity to say yes and to say no, but to be just really grounded in no or whatever it is, grounded in my own values and such a deep sense of my own value that it can only that I'm really stepping into. Well, does that take me towards or away? I'm going to go towards on this one, but thanks so much for the opportunity. Whatever that might be, that's absolutely gold, so something that's running around my head, right.
Craig McHugh:That's just absolutely amazing, lisa, obviously amazing. There's something that's running around my head right. That's just absolutely amazing, lisa, honestly amazing. There's something that's going around my head around right now and I'm gonna try and explain it. I'm not sure it's gonna come out very well, I'm gonna try. I've just got this sense of chicken and egg. What comes first?
Craig McHugh:Because something you said right there really resonated with me in terms of I can't even quite remember what you said, but something really resonated with me and it made me think of this oh yeah, so so what do you need and and what's moving you away from it and what brings you back? So, if I think about all of the times I've been at the top of the pyramid, I've been, I've been fortunate enough to be at the top of the pyramid, it's because of the realization, recognition, acknowledgement of feeling and seeing the world I'm trying to create, even if it's just with a few people or an organization or a team or a person, is that I'm bringing my why to life, my purpose to life, and I'm doing it through those values that mean so much to me when I've moved away from. So that's where I that's with, when all that stuff happens on top of the pyramid. When I'm not at the top of the pyramid is when that stuff isn't happening, and that's when I'm fighting for survival.
Craig McHugh:But if all of that is going on, I'm not fighting for survival, but if it isn't going on, I am. So the more I do that, the more I move up the pyramid, the less I do that, the lower the pyramid I am. Does that make sense? And you said what.
Craig McHugh:So yeah.
Lisa Butler:You said what comes first, the chicken or the egg? And I think that motivation comes in hand in hand with courage, because all of the things that we have to do require us to be. It is that everyday courage piece. Yeah, whatever that looks like within that triangle, but if we're not courageous, we never take the step, and if we never take the step, we never know if it would work or not. We never make a failure, we never get the learning, we never move on, we never grow.
Craig McHugh:So a million percent, and whether that is asking out the person you fancy, or quitting your job and starting a business and no clue doing it like me, um, or whether that's even going on a journey where you don't know what your, your vision, purpose and why is, and you go and find out. That's a huge step in itself, a huge step, yeah. So yeah, that there's definitely a link there with with courage, isn't there?
Lisa Butler:because, yeah, yeah, oh wow and I remember last year, not last year. Maybe the year before doesn't matter when but there was, like my annual review was, my biggest achievement for this year was asking for help.
Craig McHugh:Wow.
Lisa Butler:Because I just couldn't do it anymore and realized actually that had been the hardest thing for me to do Like a lifetime it took me to get there. But the moment that we can ask for what we need, then the change starts to happen.
Craig McHugh:Yeah.
Lisa Butler:But we don't. We just don't grow until we get. We have to be uncomfortable.
Craig McHugh:We've got to get comfy with being uncomfortable because there is no growth in comfort no, and it's uncomfortable moving your way up that pyramid because you will slip down, yeah, you'll then climb back up. You'll slip back. You'll climb back up. You'll slip back, you'll climb back up. It's not easy. It really is uncomfortable and you can't you can't do it on your own. You need, you need, you need awesome people around you. You need to, you need to to ask for that help. Yeah, you need. You need to know what the top of a pyramid looks like, your vision. You need to know why you're going there and you need to know how to get there, which are your values. So, just linking back to those, I mean that has just been an absolute mind blown realization we also just need to give ourselves permission to travel.
Lisa Butler:It's not a I'm in this triangle, I can't go. It's a traveling thing. I'm traveling up and traveling down, it's okay. I I'm going to go left, right, up and down. That is okay. And I wanted to offer. One of my biggest regrets over the past 49 years has been that I've never kept a journal, and I now realize that if I had done that, it wouldn't have had to be a lengthy term, but I could have really seen where I was at one point, could have really seen where I was at one point.
Lisa Butler:um, and I recently bought a really small five-year diary because it's got like a tiny inch piece of space and I just thought I'm gonna do this every night. What went really well, what did I learn, and you know something else. And then in a year's time, when I write the same thing, I'm gonna see where, see where I was, and in five years time I'm going to look back and go oh God, look. Then I thought this Now look at me, I'm still there.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, I love that and I think it's really important that we do. We do appreciate the progress that we're making and this is a great way of being able to well, that's a great way. But the pyramid or whatever you know, judging things for value or vision, purpose and values, is a great way as well of recognizing how you're moving forward, the progress that you're making, because you can have all of the houses and the cars and the money in the world. It makes you a bit more comfortable. It might make you happy five minutes, but it's not what the deep and deep down stuff that we're we're talking about is all about. And you know, you mentioned, you mentioned there, you know, uh, kind of an objective for the year. If, at the end of this year, one person has said to me craig, as a result of what we did, I'm now doing this and it's made this difference, then I've achieved and I'm at the top of the pyramid million percent nice work, and that is something.
Lisa Butler:There's something really gorgeous about striving for that.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, a million percent. Wow, what a conversation. So what are our podcast ponder points going to be? Mine is just keep listening to this episode because, honestly, my mind is blown.
Lisa Butler:Seriously, what a great, great conversation my ponder point is where are you really and what do you need to be resourced enough at this stage that it feels safe to move to the next yeah, I love that.
Craig McHugh:That's really good. What's going through my mind, ponder point wise at the minute. Mine is what are you doing, or what can you do either way, to either help you get to the top of the pyramid or to realize that you maybe already are. And what have you done? That maybe means that you are moving towards the top or might be even be at the top. Because, just again, something you said earlier, lisa, really resonated with me is I'm not sure we give we give ourselves enough credit or opportunity to reflect on what we're actually doing because of all of the other noise and all of the kind of standard expectations that we have to be doing or getting or achieving or whatever. So, yeah, that would be mine. Wow, absolutely freaking awesome, fun, fun, fun. Honestly, I'm literally lost for words. That was, anyway, I. I think, wow, yeah, amazing.
Craig McHugh:I hope you uh, everyone, whatever channel you're listening on or watching on, have enjoyed that conversation clearly as much as I have, and hopefully you have, lisa. So give us a like, a follow, subscribe, whatever channel you are watching and listening on, because this will get this amazing conversation out even to even more people, and we look forward to seeing you next time. All right, see you bye. And there we have it, the latest episode of the Living your Learning podcast and part two of our motivation special. We really hope you enjoyed it. Now, don't forget, please do give us a like, a follow or subscribe, on whichever channel you are listening or watching on, and we really look forward to you joining us next time.
