The Living Your Learning Podcast
Exploring all things leadership, learning and everything in between; The Living Your Learning Podcast is the place for top chats, awesome insights and a splash of inspiration that will light the way to awesome leaders, amazing teams and even a better you!
The Living Your Learning Podcast
Episode Six | The Scourge of Rubbish Leadership
Keywords
Leadership, Leadership Behaviours, Self-awareness, Leadership Development, Poor Leadership, Leadership Characteristics, Emotional Intelligence, Accountability, Leadership Training, Communication, Leaders, Managers, Leadership Coaching
Summary
Rubbish leadership and in particular poor leadership behaviour, can literally make or break an organisation's culture and profoundly impact people's lives; and often in ways leaders themselves don't fully recognise. So, in this powerful in this episode, Craig and Lisa explore the bad and the ugly of leadership behaviour.
Diving into the difference between those who manage and those who lead, as well as the consequences of poor leadership, Craig and Lisa share heartbreaking examples of how toxic behaviours can damage mental health, crush motivation, and sometimes can lead to devastating outcomes. Their frustration is palpable as they discuss how frequently these harmful patterns continue despite clear evidence of their destructive impact.
They explore the "accidental leader" phenomenon; where technically skilled individuals are promoted without proper development; and examine how misunderstanding leadership fundamentals leads to damaging behaviours.
Through listener contributions and personal experiences, they also identify the most harmful leadership behaviours, with each representing a failure to understand leadership's fundamental purpose; creating environments where others can thrive.
So join them in this thought-provoking discussion about the human side of leadership and discover practical wisdom for becoming the kind of leader people genuinely want to follow. Whether you're currently in a leadership position or aspire to lead others, this episode will challenge you to reflect on your impact and leadership behaviours.
Takeaways
Leadership behaviours significantly impact well-being.
Self-awareness is crucial for effective leadership.
Poor leadership can lead to severe consequences.
Leaders must prioritise the needs of their people.
Continuous development and training are essential for leaders.
A supportive environment fosters better performance.
Feedback and reflection are vital for leadership growth.
Leaders should be open to vulnerability and authenticity.
Long-term vision is vital for sustainable leadership success.
Effective communication is a key component of good leadership.
Hello and welcome to the Living your Learning podcast, exploring all things leadership, learning and everything in between. The Living your Learning podcast is the place for top chats, awesome insights and a splash of inspiration that will light the way to awesome leaders, amazing teams and even a better you, and on this episode, we're discussing all things leadership behaviour. So we really hope you enjoy this one. Hello everyone and welcome back to the Living your Learning podcast with me, craig McHugh and the amazing, awesome Lisa Butler. How are you, lisa? Happy Friday.
Lisa Butler:Yeah, and you, I am good. I am good, I've had a good week. Sun is shining, daffodils are popping through. Life is good.
Craig McHugh:Absolutely. Yeah, it's beautiful here in Portsmouth today in the historic dockyard, so, yeah, love, the sunshine and summer is on its way, so amazing. So, another episode of the Living your Learning podcast and we've got, well I a cracker of a topic to talk about today and we've touched on this a little bit over the episodes, and particularly your first one, where we touched on this and I spoke to Pam about some of this stuff as well. I know that we'll keep coming back to it in various other conversations, but today specifically, I would love to and you've very kindly agreed, I'd love to talk specifically about leadership behaviours today. How do you feel about that?
Lisa Butler:Let's do it. That sounds exciting and oh well, I can. Only the excitement. Well, the excited is just coming up. A lot for me there.
Craig McHugh:So I've got a different bit of an emotion coming up if I can share. I'm very excited to talk about it, obviously, and I'm very excited to be on the podcast, but I've got, I've got. I've got some frustration and annoyance and stuff around this that I just really want to get out. Apologies now, everyone who's listening, yeah, you might. You might see a bit of the old craig wrath or hear a bit of the old craig wrath on this episode okay.
Lisa Butler:So it sounds like there's a lot there and it sounds important. So I think it's very everybody readers, listeners need to take a deep breath and um, why is this topic so important to you?
Craig McHugh:so it's always been important to me, um, and no doubt like you, because, because you, you're you're in the leadership development world and leadership coaching world as well. It's why we do what we do. We want to create better leaders and we want to have better leadership. I have I'm going to be trying to be careful, but I just do you know what? I'm just really, really fed up of seeing and hearing examples of really excuse my language shit leadership that has a really really negative impact on people.
Craig McHugh:Now, I'm I'm a great believer that we're responsible for how we react and how we respond, but I think also, leaders need to be really aware of the responsibility they have and what they do can create an environment that can really severely impact people in lots of ways and over the years. You know this is not necessarily isolated cases, but I've really seen the damage it does the poor leadership and poor leadership behavior can do on people's mental health, physical health, their engagement, their motivation which I know we talked about last time their desire to go into work, just their, just their life in general. And yeah, I've, I'm just I suppose it's why we're in a job, because we're trying to change those and fix them and develop them, but when I see it really, really upsets me is it something that you've experienced personally as well?
Craig McHugh:Oh God, yes, definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've been very lucky to have a couple of leaders, managers, bosses, in my life who have been absolutely phenomenal, who are dear friends to this day and who I still talk to or who I still class as mentors. One of them, peter Wakefield, who was on our first special guest session, and the other chap called Cliff Sherrod amazing, amazing guy. But, yeah, I've had a couple of not so good ones in that mix as well, and it really really does make a huge, huge difference and on the flip side of that, you're obviously talking about those that that have been brilliant and there's a really it sounds like there's two.
Lisa Butler:If you've got a scale, they're on opposite sides of that scale and not everyone can be brilliant and not everybody's rubbish, and it's that sort of where's the sweet spot in the middle and what's missing in order to enable people to be better leaders. What's your opinion on that?
Craig McHugh:totally what's missing. There's a lot, of, a lot of stuff missing and and I think we'll go through that and I actually and I know you, you did as well, but I got a better response. But we put some posts out on linkedin, didn't we? Earlier in the week, because we knew we were going to talk about this. I mean, don't, don't get me wrong, mine wasn't amazing, but there was a good few, uh there's, there was at least a handful of some really good contributions around what good and bad leadership is, or bad behaviors and characteristics, but in term, in terms of that sweet spot for me and I'm not going to hold myself to necessarily bad or great characteristics just yet, but for me that sweet spot is, you know, the one thing that really bugs me is just this lack of awareness and regard for another person and how, as a leader, I might be interacting with that person and the impact that that might have. It's mind-boggling. I just don't get it.
Lisa Butler:What do you think is the reason that people don't have that awareness of others?
Craig McHugh:That's a really good question, Really good question. So I think emotional intelligence really comes into it. I just think it's a lack of development, it's a lack of ability. But to be fair, I also think that these leaders are probably a lot of the time and I'm not necessarily defending it, but you know, it could be a cause are under such pressure themselves and are probably getting it from above that maybe unwittingly it's being passed down, Maybe Okay, so you've got the club sandwich effect. Yeah, definitely.
Lisa Butler:What else?
Craig McHugh:Sorry, I forgot what your original question was. What else is?
Lisa Butler:causing it. I forgot what you're causing it like you, oh, what else is causing? It. Yeah, so you're talking about, you've got that pressure down and then the pressure up, but fundamentally, when? How does someone know that they're in a leadership role?
Craig McHugh:because they've got a job title, which is what, sadly, yeah, but what, what, what?
Lisa Butler:the job title, like, if I'm department manager of Walker's Crisps, where's the part that tells me I'm a leader?
Craig McHugh:Because I would hazard a guess because you have a responsibility for oversee other people.
Lisa Butler:So is the lack of leadership, the lack of clarity around what people's roles are.
Craig McHugh:Oh, a million percent. Yeah, a million percent, I think, yeah, ok, so I think there's I'm starting to see a couple of parts here. I think there's the bit where there's a very much lack of clarity in terms of what leadership is and maybe we can touch on that briefly as well or what it should be. There's a lack of development. I mean, how many, how many leaders are accidental leaders, because they're there just because they've been there a long time, or they were really good at being that specialist role, that technical role. Now all of a sudden they've got to lead people and so you know, they kind of get there accidentally or by default, I also. So there's that bit.
Craig McHugh:But I also think there's the more human side of it as well, and you don't necessarily have to be a leader for for these behaviors to come out. I think they come out in everyday life. But when you're a leader, you've got to be really, really particularly careful because of the shadow that you cast and it's those, it's just those everyday human behaviors that that really need to be considered and people need to be to be careful. I mean, everyone needs to be careful, needs to consider them in everyday life. But I think when you're a leader particularly, and I wonder if sometimes, because of the lack of the other stuff I just mentioned, people get into a leadership or management position and they think they've got to be in charge and they've got to boss people around and I've literally seen really decent, great, lovely, nice people become complete knobs, to coin your favourite term.
Lisa Butler:But I have. There is something in that perception that to be a leader, to be in charge, you have to. I think just that word I'm in charge that that is a misunderstanding of what it is you're actually doing.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, a million percent.
Lisa Butler:And it's really interesting because I mean statistics of accidental managers is something, or accidental leaders, no, accidental managers, isn't it so? Like 80 percent of managers are accidental. Then the opposite side of that is, the amount of training that goes into enabling people to be effective and efficient and inspiring leaders is minimal, and so then what you end up with is a bunch of people, as you say, not all the time, not generalizing, but the. The danger is that you end up with somebody who is technically superb in a role where now they're thinking about people and I love that um quote with simon sinek. Your job as a leader is to manage the people, is to look after the people. I can't even remember what it is. I have to look at the internet it is hold on.
Craig McHugh:I think I've got it. You are um, it's something. It's something like you are not in charge of people, you are responsible for the people in your charge, or something like that yeah, yeah, but we don't, we don't look at that, we don't think about that.
Lisa Butler:It's very much so. You and I work together and I've been promoted. We've done exactly the same job for the last five years, but now I'm in charge. But what I'm now going to do is the person who's taken my place is I'm going to tell them how to do that job really well, because I'm I've done that job and I know how to do it best. Rather allowing you the time to learn the lessons to make you the most efficient. I'm just going to try and make it really efficient because I just want to get on with it and we it's. It's a completely different headspace, it's a completely different requirement. And do we have to be the person in charge to be the leader?
Craig McHugh:no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, and I think that that that is such a lack of understanding of that, and I think there's also the proportion of people who want to be leaders for the wrong reasons. You know, to coin another quote. I think it's Simon Sinek as well. You know, leadership is not about the job title, it's not about status, but I come across so many people where it clearly is about the job title and it clearly is about the status, and I'd just like to say, right now, if you are a leader because of the job title you've got and the status that it supposedly gives you, please just stop. Just stop doing it right now. Stop being a leader.
Craig McHugh:And whilst I'm on a little bit of a rant, the other thing that really annoys me and I think I actually saw you post something about this in a comment on LinkedIn, lisa, on a comment on a post we both like which is leaders who say I don't need any more development. I've been a leader for 25 years years, I've got a master's in leadership, I don't need any more development. Those people, if you're listening, stop being a leader right now, because it's you that needs it.
Lisa Butler:Sorry, rant over, yeah, um really interesting thing and it's really interesting coming from the military where leadership is expected from the off, like self-leadership first and then group team leadership, and at every level you are assessed for your leadership ability. It's on your annual report, your leadership skills. It's just an expectation and I wonder if some of it is also that there may be an association that leadership is not something we do unless we are in a particular role.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, that's a great point.
Lisa Butler:But it's nothing to do with us, unless I'm the boss.
Craig McHugh:It's a great point, but it shouldn't be that way.
Lisa Butler:I was talking to someone recently and she said why would I want my team to do leadership training? I'm the leader. I don't want other people telling me what to do you are joking me.
Craig McHugh:Literally, I'm gonna, I'm gonna like start shouting in a minute like I wasn't wound up enough about this stuff. That is, oh my god, I'm literally don't have the words.
Lisa Butler:Well, not words that I couldn't say and the other side and then it's like but what would it be like? This is my utopian vision for organizations. Imagine an organization and a people structure where people know their individual roles so clearly and their own responsibilities and their own chains of accountability, and where they fit in and what the purpose and the vision is and where they're going. They're so clear on that that they absolutely show up with. They've done all the things they need to do so that when they show up, they are ready, they are present, they are honest about where they're at and they're focused and they're ready to go. When they make a mistake, they put their hand up. When they're not sure, they seek clarification.
Lisa Butler:When someone else does something that they get their credit for, they say oh, actually that wasn't me, that was john. But you know, john thanks so much for your help like how does having people in your organization who are self-led and self-generated, who feed up and say right, craig, these are the things I've done towards that project. This is what I'm going to do next. I need your help here and I need to delay on this. Can we work within this time frame now? Like does that undermine your position or does that actually really help it?
Craig McHugh:it really helps it.
Lisa Butler:I'm so with you on this, and you know, one thing that really stood out what you said there as well was chain of accountability, not command, and I think that that makes a huge difference yeah, it's maybe a counter, but maybe I mean there's so many different facets to it and it's really interesting if you overlay management function on leadership function, because there is that piece in the middle where they are the same. But I think often management can be seen as well. I'm in, well, I'm managing a resource of people, therefore I'm leading them, but it's different and I think the nuances of that can be can be difficult for people to understand and actually really difficult to explain. I like the you know the Steve Jobs thing about management. It's about persuading people to do the things they don't want to do. Yeah, leadership is about inspiring people to do the things they never thought they could do.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, love that quote, so this is how I always describe it Leadership is about people, management is about stuff. You lead the people so that they can manage the stuff.
Lisa Butler:Yeah, yeah, and I, I mean, I see you. You see it in well, you can see it in schools, in communities, anywhere where there's people, you can see who the leaders are, and it's not the people that are necessarily sat with the spreadsheets working out how many apples we've got to go around at lunch break. It's OK, we haven't got enough apples OK. How can we think about this differently? What about if we did this? Has anyone else got any ideas of how we could do that? Right, let's just take a pause. It's a different energy when people lead us, I think.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, no, I million percent agree with that. I really really do. Yeah, I mean leadership. For me, it's about I don't think I've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it again. There was I'm really into F1.
Craig McHugh:So, so excited to start up again and there was an interview with Toto Wolff, who's the team principal and owner of Mercedes, and he was basically saying that and I use this all the time, so I think it's just brilliant that the his job is to create an environment where everybody from the person that sweeps the garage to the people that build and design the car, to the drivers his job is to create an environment where every single one of those people can be at their best as often as they possibly can be, or all the time, and can give their best all of the time.
Craig McHugh:He said that is my sole job here to create that environment where those people can be their best. And I think what frustrates me is so often and I suppose it keeps us in work, doesn't it? But so often that's not what I see. I see leaders who where it's just about them, or managers where it's all about them and not about their people and not about helping their people to thrive and the impact that that has from you know people being so upset that you know they're in floods of tears, or so upset that it's severely impacting their mental health, or so disengaged that they just don't want to show up anymore. I mean, honestly, it breaks my heart.
Lisa Butler:Yeah, and it's that kind of self-awareness is the beginning of this right as individuals, because I think so often people in positions of authority don't have the self-awareness to understand how they're coming across, so whether they're abrasive or short or not assertive or whatever that might look like. So we say this every single episode, but self-awareness is the key.
Craig McHugh:It is.
Lisa Butler:So there's that aspect of it and it's the understanding of what am I trying to achieve here, because if it's functional, can I give an example?
Craig McHugh:Yeah, please do.
Lisa Butler:So I have experienced environments where it has been a really clear like it's like oil and milk, just so completely different. Same organization, people like you could see the people who were managers. You could see the people you'd feel, the people who were leaders, because the way they talked about their obvious, isn't it?
Lisa Butler:was so completely different. Yeah, it was when. When I was talking to people who were like natural leaders, it was like, well, I want to really make sure my people are okay and I'm going to go to this length. And you know, it was people first, every single time. And when I was talking to people who needed to develop that area, perhaps they would get.
Lisa Butler:If I asked the question what does leadership mean to you? Their answer was functional, it was out of a textbook. Well, this is what it is, this is what I do. There's no feeling there and I, for me, I'm a real feeler, so I can't think of another better phrase. Um, like you know, but energetically, people need to believe in other people and if the energy is saying the computer says no, then you don't get the same feedback from people, you don't get the same buy-in.
Lisa Butler:When I went to the event on um on Monday, I was so I bumped into one of my old troop corporals and I hadn't seen him probably for 25 years, spotted him across the way and I was like he went like this and I kind of like. I was like hello, hello, hello and a massive hug. It was like oh, it's so good to see you and it was the highlight of my month so far. It was just lovely to see him. And but there are people who I worked with in a similar environment who I'd be like all right, how are you completely different?
Craig McHugh:wow, that says everything. What's the phrase? Um people remember won't remember what you do.
Craig McHugh:They remember how you made them feel yeah and again, another little bit of a rant leaders, managers out there, or managers who are leaders. You've got people, you've got a team. If you do not think that your job is about your people and putting them first, then you shouldn't be a leader or a manager. Your sole reason for being is them and to help them be as good as they can be, because if you have amazing people around you that are even better than you, never be afraid for your people to be better than you. You don't have to be the best at everything when you're a leader, but when you've got amazing people around you that are doing really great work and you're the leader of those people, guess what happens to you? You look great as well. They win, you win. It's quite simple and straightforward.
Lisa Butler:So stop with all the crap behavior that prevents people from being their best I um, I recently had a discussion with somebody about leadership and we were talking about people bringing their whole self to work and being honest about how they're feeling, and the sort of comment which this person was not alone in was very much, I'm not there as a counsellor, I'm not there to hear all that stuff, and I was like I don't think your people are there wanting you to be their counsellor. But understanding that something is going on in the background gives them the validation as a human being and gives you the understanding to be able to manage them better by leading them and showing them that it's safe to show up and be honest.
Craig McHugh:Exactly that. Yeah, exactly that. I mean. A leader is only as good as the people they're leading, because it's the people that are doing the stuff. They're getting the results. Leaders, it's not your result, it's their result. If things go wrong, you take the blame. If things go right, you give them the glory. That's how it is. Is it worth? Because there's some crackers on my linkedin post of the people that replied, you being one of them. Sorry, I didn't reply on yours. I was thinking about it, then I forgot, but should we go so through some of these bad leadership behaviors and characteristics that people have put down? So I'm going to start with yours, actually, if that's okay. So yours was very, very short and sweet, but but very brilliant. So your smiley face with heart eyes was the good. We'll come back to that, but your um emoji that's a brilliant, really good description you had ignorant, selfish and unkind. Tell us a little bit more about those. Why are they? Why are they your top three bad leadership characteristics?
Lisa Butler:okay. So ignorance is that sort of lack of self-awareness and lack of awareness of others and the judgment that comes with that ignorance so key, that would be my top one as well I guess selfish and unkind could be labeled under under the same thing. I cannot abide unkindness. I just don't like it.
Lisa Butler:There is no need to be unkind to people, and the selfish part which is I'm in this role and I don't really care about you, because actually I'm only bothered about me. And I remember at Sandhurst having a conversation We'd done the whole year. At Sandhurst I was on my final exercise and was talking to somebody and said, oh, why did you want to become an officer? And he went because my dad told me that I wouldn't get my inheritance and I wouldn't be able to take over the family business if I didn't do three years. And I remember just looking at him like what, and in that moment he shattered everything that I thought about my officers. I thought everybody became an officer because they wanted to make a difference to soldiers. That was absolutely the reason I became one. I wanted to be the voice for people that didn't necessarily have the positioning to speak up for themselves. I've always been gobby and I was like, right, I want to be that person.
Lisa Butler:Have you, don't believe that for a second, lisa I didn't'm across like that, I know but for but for someone to go through all of that training and still have the belief that their needs were more important than the people they were leading how did they get through the training with that belief?
Lisa Butler:yeah, because he was really good at what he did. You know it was very as in. You know he's loud and confident and got people up the hill and but I wonder, because he won't have been alone, I wondered those types of people, military or not, when they get given men and women to look after, like how does that shift the way that they are?
Craig McHugh:and I would hate to think, when, the when the brown stuff really really hits the fan, what then happens?
Lisa Butler:but I also think that I mean we're talking, you know, 25 plus years ago and I know that the military leadership, you know things are shifting and it's a different environment and you have to be a certain way. But but fundamentally, like, is it a disconnect between? Like in 2025, we talk about empathy and vulnerability and authenticity. If we went back 50 years, that wasn't even in the lexicon, you know. So we are seeing the tail end of cultural expectations of what leadership might look like. Donald Trump not going to get into this conversation, but his style of leadership is very different to Jacinda Juhain.
Craig McHugh:Who's?
Lisa Butler:having the best responses. Who's got the happiest workforce? That's a discussion for another day. There are so many ways to do leadership and actually you could argue that Mr Trump has the best interests of his people at heart. That's definitely a discussion for another day yeah but my point being that there's lots of different ways to do it, but for me, when you do it from a place of, what can I get out of this?
Craig McHugh:yeah, I'm with you on that and so for me, that man just putting my political views out there, that man ticks all of the people yeah, but I think I think leadership there's, there is responsibility of leaders and no doubt, in some warped, weird way that most of us are yet to understand, he does have best interests at heart, but I, I think they're probably his are first and those of his mates and that's all about money and what have you. But I think leaders have a responsibility to not only serve and protect and look after the people that are immediately with them, but also the people that are coming down the road afterwards, and what kind of a place are we going to leave for them?
Lisa Butler:And what kind of a legacy are we going to leave for them? And what kind of a legacy are we going to leave for them? I think I'm like literally chewing my pen, so I don't interrupt you that piece about where are we going. And I'm going to be in this position for three years. Where will I leave this? Like, where does this organisation want to be in 20 years time? And what's my part in taking it closer to that vision? Like, how many people in those roles are having that long-term view? I think it's minimal. Most people are thinking about the here and the now, the wages, the pension. What can I do now? Rather than my role is to make this 10% better than it was when I took it over, so the next person can make it 10% better and then in 10 years time will be a hundred percent better.
Lisa Butler:Like that long term vision. I think that is one of the key things that's missing.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, agreed, and it's, it's. It's the difference between playing the short game what's what's going to happen this quarter, this year, et cetera, this year, etc. Etc. And again, um, I know we're quite big fans of simon sinek, but his work is a is brilliant, particularly around leadership. What he coins is the infinite game. So you're not, you're not playing just to win the game in the short term, you're playing to stay in it. So you're playing to stay in it in the long term. And that, and that's a very different approach and attitude and very similar to what you described there.
Craig McHugh:So there were your, there were your bad ones. Should we have a look at what other people said in terms of, um, bad ones? Okay, oh, this is a good one, carrie, if you're listening, carrie's lovely. So, so, carrie was, she did um the coach training diploma. Um, she was on on my cohort, the one that's the same one you did as well. Um, so, carrie, she says micromanaging, trust, having a trust issue, lack of account, or she's a given for actually lack of accountability and poor communication skills. So, yeah, what do you think of micromanaging?
Lisa Butler:I have been guilty of micromanaging because I didn't know how to delegate effectively.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, we have.
Craig McHugh:I think, it's not the way yeah, it is a lack of confidence, a lack of trust in other people, and it erodes environments and cultures agree, and it just makes it not only worse for the, for the person being led, but actually makes it worse for the leader, because they end up doing everything and they create this narrative where you know, I'm the superhero and you know and you're not very good, and it's just no good for anybody, it's just no good for anyone. Now we will talk about the opposites of all of these.
Lisa Butler:Yeah, but Craig, again going back to that, that is a lack of understanding and clarity around what the role is.
Craig McHugh:Exactly that.
Lisa Butler:If we understood that clear, effective, efficient communication to delegate to you know free up capacity to blah, blah, blah, then actually people wouldn't. I know you're going to go on to ego in a second but actually, like so much of this is, I can't give you that. I can't give you that because then it will take something away from me, or I don't trust you because I can do it better, and that's the big difference.
Lisa Butler:Is that I, I, I that's when you know you're coming from a management headspace is when you're thinking in I terms yeah, it shouldn't be I.
Craig McHugh:It should either be you or we. For me, lack of accountability, that's a real good one. What do you think of that one?
Lisa Butler:I'm pausing because I know that I I'm just going back through the Lisa Banks of evidence here but systems that don't have accountability create resentment, which cause micromanagement, blah, blah blah. So accountability is really important at every level because if we haven't done something or we have done something, we must put our hands up to it. And earlier you said about if something goes right, we put our hands up, and if something goes wrong, we put our hands up to it. And earlier you said about if something goes right, we put our hands up and if something goes wrong, we puts our hands up.
Craig McHugh:That's, that's the big thing is taking it on the chin and that links back to the thing that we've talked about a lot over the episodes and no doubt we'll keep talking about it, but it's so super important is, is that psychological safety and people feeling safe. And this really, really upsets me. But if I had a pound for every time people have said to me because of poor leadership, that they, they don't feel safe, well, I wouldn't need to work ever again. And that is just for somebody to say they don't feel safe. I mean, that's horrific.
Lisa Butler:I am. I have seen big hairy blokes reduced to tears by leaders the way that they crucified them in public. I've been reduced to tears myself by leaders inverted commas and I know people who have been floored and literally crushed by another person's word. And it didn't need to be like that. They didn't need to be like that. It's that bit that gets me that it didn't need to be like that.
Craig McHugh:They didn't need.
Lisa Butler:It's that bit that gets me that it didn't need to be like that and so that old phrase of how people treat you is more about them and less about you. That might be the case, but it doesn't stop the person who's just been kicked from feeling bruised and losing their confidence. And I so part of this is sorry, just going off tangent slightly as always no, no, fine, please do.
Lisa Butler:The lack of investment into appreciating the importance of good quality leadership training at every level on a regular basis and having those hooks where you expect a certain behavior in your company or your people structure. This demonstrates to us that you are offering and providing good leadership. These are, this is what we expect to see, and if we don't see that and we see this, then we know that it is poor leadership and the consequence for poor leadership is more development or more training, or you need to learn how to apologize to somebody or have coaching or whatever it is.
Craig McHugh:But yeah, it's not a one-off thing, is it?
Lisa Butler:no, there is such a lack of investment, both at the individual level and the organization level, to really grip just how important this is I agree, I want to.
Craig McHugh:I want to read you something that someone sent me the other day, and I won't say her name I know she does listen, so it'll probably embarrass her, but it's just brilliant and it's someone I've been working with quite a lot. Just amazing. Do you know your ideal person that you work with, who is just like a sponge and takes everything in and then puts the work in and makes the improvements, makes the mistakes and goes again and goes again? This is this person, just phenomenal. But this person sent me this message. I'm just going to read some of it saying don't know who else will appreciate this, so I'm texting you.
Craig McHugh:Just had my first in-person meeting with so, with so and so who's a new direct report? I set aside the whole day for him. I knew I wanted to spend the day understanding him, his background, his role, what he's working on, his challenges, how he likes communication, what he believes a good manager should be, etc. I've really been trying to understand behaviors and communication styles and we set clear expectations. And he said to me and this is the best bit, because this proves that everything that we say and everything we talk about it's not just us spouting off about leadership actually works. And it actually works. He said he, then she then goes. He then said to me at the end, for the first time since coming into this role, he feels he then she then goes.
Craig McHugh:He then said to me at the end for the first time since we're coming into this role, he feels he has a leader on his side. And the message was ended. I could cry just, this stuff works. We're not just saying this for the sake of it, it actually works, it really really does. Poor leadership doesn't work, because what will happen is things will start falling. You might not see it straight away, but slowly but surely and then it will happen really quickly. Things will fall apart and if you're in a smaller business or organization, it will have such a detrimental, severe impact on your business that potentially it could be irreparable.
Lisa Butler:We're not just saying this stuff if you want to have a good business, have good leaders yeah, and and also talking about that irreparable effect, the understanding that you can have a catastrophic effect on somebody's mental health, their ability to believe in themselves, which will last them for the rest of their life, or cause them as I know someone that did to take their life and that, yeah, I remember you telling me about that, that that that really affected me hearing that, and I've seen examples of where it's severely impacted people's mental health, you know, from severe anxiety or depression or whatever but it just I can't.
Lisa Butler:I'm not even sure I can find the words, but the fact that how somebody has been as a leader has an impact on somebody deciding to take their own life it's unforgivable, it makes me want to cry and I don't cry it is absolutely unforgivable and I feel really strongly that, as you say, if an organization wants to really flourish and thrive, then partner with someone who can help you to understand how you get the best out of your people. It's not just a I got the interview, I've got, I've done these jobs and I have got some qualifications and I've done these courses. It's a how do I show up in the most inspiring version of who I can possibly be to help the people that I'm leading? Like? That's not a big ask, that's. That's where humility comes into it. You don't know everything. You never will be open to learning, and remember that these are people in front of you who have lives and families and stuff yeah, they're human beings, absolutely.
Craig McHugh:There was the last one from carrie, just before we look at a few of these other ones is poor communication skills. You know this, this, this links to the emotional intelligence bit, which, which encompasses social skills and empathy and self-regulation, self-awareness, all that, all that jazz. But I would probably say 90, maybe more, of all of the poor leadership and the negative impact that has on others is down to this one. I mean, the others come into it because you know, if you're, if you've got great self-awareness, you're not going to be a poor communicator. All all of these are really interlinked for me. But but, yeah, the the amount of issues that I've seen because of poor communication, which might be the result of some of the other poor behaviors, is probably most of the time just rubbish communication, not in term, not in just in terms of what's said, but how it's said, when it's said, the clarity of what's said. It's so important it really really is. And they say that communication is a soft skill. No, no, no, no, it's not. It is a hard skill. Hard to learn, hard to develop, harder to do, but it's definitely a hard skill. Yeah, not a hard skill. Yeah, not as a soft skill A few others here. So this was Darren.
Craig McHugh:Authenticity, kindness, oh, and vulnerability, so we mentioned a few of those already. So kindness, I mean, what does it cost to be kind to someone? You know you're not in charge, you're responsible? No, that's the phrase. You're not in charge, you're responsible for the people within your charge. So be kind. It's about what you can do for them, not what they can do for you. And kindness goes such a long way. It really does what. What do you reckon to authenticity? That's a good one.
Lisa Butler:I think it's misunderstood and for me, when you show up as yourself, that that can be interpreted in a number of different ways. So I always talk about, if you imagine, a cardboard box, and all the things we've been told about leadership fit inside a cardboard box. The problem is is that everybody tries to get in the box as well and fit themselves and shapeshift to become the box, and fit themselves and shape shift to become the box, and they forget what they forget actually that leadership is a box of tools and yeah, that's great, so you can go into the box and go right.
Lisa Butler:Which which of these approaches would be the most useful thing for me in this situation? Now, right, I'm going to take that out of the box and put it on me instead of I'm going to get in the box and squish myself up and try and be like everybody else.
Craig McHugh:Gold Lisa Wow.
Lisa Butler:That's such a good way of looking at it. Lisa and her marvellous metaphors.
Craig McHugh:You're so right in that book and I'm publishing it. I want my 10% on that bestseller.
Lisa Butler:Marvellous, marvellous. But when we, if we can reach in and if we can really understand who we are and like what's the brilliant thing we can bring into the room and then I need a bit of help here Then actually the people in front of us become more inspired because we're real and genuine. We're not out of reach, we're not perfect. It's like guys, guys, I have no idea what we're talking about. Would somebody mind spending some time with me to help me understand what this is and ask more questions and be open to the fact that you don't bloody know everything. But again, this goes back to a misconception that to be a leader, you have to know everything, you have to do everything, and those are not true, that's no, it's not true.
Craig McHugh:It is not true and it really so. The authenticity thing as well is about really understanding yourself. So, again, I know we've mentioned it before, but those psychometrics that people can do, some of those are so good at helping you understand yourself, helping you develop that emotional intelligence and, and you know, everyone brings their own flavor of leadership and you should absolutely be yourself. But these things that we're we're talking about, well, the bad things at the minute, um, that we're that, um, that we're talking about. So a lack of authenticity with that one and a lack of kindness with that one, down from down, well, these are actually as good ones, but I'm going to say the lack of, so they're bad ones, because I didn't know this stuff.
Craig McHugh:You know we can, people can all bring their own flavors. There's still certain things that you need to do or not do in your own way, and he's also per, which is really good, and I'm going to change it to lack of, lack of, is a lack of vulnerability. That one is huge for me vulnerability. What do you think about that vulnerability?
Lisa Butler:I have always been someone who wears my heart on my sleeve. I was always berated for it in the military by those above me, but those that I worked with, I think, appreciated it, although sometimes probably too often I was too led by how I felt and wasn't strategic about stuff. But vulnerability is I don't know everything. I'm struggling with something. I need some help. It's just being human, I think.
Craig McHugh:Yeah.
Lisa Butler:It is not a weakness. People perceive being vulnerable as being weak, and it's two very different things. So, yeah, I think that's absolutely a key piece of just being human just just be human exactly that, exactly that.
Craig McHugh:So we've got um live here at the worst. Oh, this is really good and she's put a whole load of stuff. So anyone go and find the post on linkedin, because I won't read out all of it, but she's put some really good explanation with hers olivia. So she's saying worst um, egocentric, inability to reflect and learn. That's a huge one for me and this is really big avoidant. So, um, I just want to touch on that avoidant one and I'm not sure if you've seen the series. Did you ever watch the um? The drama band of brothers about the um?
Craig McHugh:Us airborne, yeah, second world war, but there's a bit where they're. It's the battle of the bulge. So they're in um Bastogne and they're in the woods and there's this, there's this um, I was going to say lieutenant there, but in America, in the US, it's lieutenant, isn't it who? Who is totally avoidant. He's always off doing something else. There's always a reason he can't be there. He's just completely not present, just just not there, not visible, not making decisions, just avoiding absolutely everything, to the point where, um, they have to do an assault on on on the town, that's, that's, that's um by these woods that they're in and it just goes absolutely pear-shaped, it goes wrong and people are being killed left, right and center and then eventually one of the other other officers takes over and it all, it all works out and they, they, they meet, they take the objective and they're all walking back and he's lying there. Obviously he's been shot, he's been killed.
Craig McHugh:But but I see, whilst it's not that example, I see examples of avoidant leadership all the time, whether it's just avoiding things altogether or not admitting to things or not taking accountability for things, avoiding issues and all stuff like that. I think that's a huge one. What are your thoughts? Yeah, stuff like that.
Lisa Butler:I think that's a huge one. What are your thoughts? Yeah, I agree, I think I can really recognise. At one period in my commissioned life I became very avoidant, not of my people, but because of overwhelm and not having a support structure that allowed me to be good at what I was doing and I didn't have the confidence to ask for it was really struggling with my own mental health at the time and would avoid. I wouldn't go to PT because I was having some physical problems and I was embarrassed by them. Yeah, just got really, really overwhelmed. I think there are two types of avoidance.
Craig McHugh:It wasn't because I physically couldn't and because my mental health was just not in a place to to offer it so what should leaders do in that, in that, um, in that situation, because I think that's a really, really valid point and, to be fair, something that I I hold my hands up I haven't considered, because maybe there are genuine reasons for it. It's not ideal that it's happening, but there's genuine reasons. So what can leaders do in in that kind of situation where they're actually really struggling themselves?
Lisa Butler:yeah, and with that comes a lot of shame that you're not doing your job properly, and that can create its own magic porridge pot. That makes it worse.
Craig McHugh:I have so much empathy for that actually.
Lisa Butler:Yeah, I think. So I think if you're the person above the person that's struggling, well, it's kind of a buddy-buddy thing that's missing. I think In nature you always have a buddy-buddy. You're always looking out for the person next to you, make sure their bag's all tied up and they've remembered everything and they're doing the same for you and you notice when they're not right yeah and and herein comes some vulnerability, because there would have been a few times where my subordinates, if you like, would have said are you okay?
Lisa Butler:I've been like, yeah, I'm absolutely fine, because at no point could I possibly have expressed that I was struggling with something, because they would think I was a failure.
Lisa Butler:That wouldn't have been the case at all yeah so it's allowing yourself to be open to the possibility that you're not failing to be able to speak out, but as the person who is. If you're the person where somebody's coming to talk to you, you damn well better be able to listen, because it's all very well people you know, it's all very well saying my door is always open, come and talk to me. But if the day someone comes to talk to you and you don't know how to hear what they're saying and you don't know how to hold a space for them, then you make the issue so much worse. So there's a few sides of it.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, yeah, worse. So there's a few sides of it, yeah, yeah, I never thought of that actually, and that's that's. That's really important. It's really powerful as well. Um, this, this other one that I would like to touch on, from olivia as well, is we've, we've, we met, we have literally mentioned this on every single episode an inability to reflect. How often have you said, have we said self-reflection is the key?
Lisa Butler:It totally is. It's like having a cheese sandwich without cheese in it. You can't do leadership without reflection.
Craig McHugh:You've got to be able to look inwardly and say to yourself, or, however you do it, what am I doing well, what am I not doing well, what do I need to do differently or better? You have to have the vulnerability, the accountability. There's probably another word. I can't quite think of the bravery, the courage, I can't think of the word I'm looking for, but to be able to do that and to look at yourself, that's so, so important. Andrew. Here he's put oh, this is a good one Retaliation, competition and closed-minded. That retaliation and competition. I see a lot closed-mindedness, I see, to be fair, can you tell us more about what that looks like?
Lisa Butler:the retaliation and competition?
Craig McHugh:so retaliation, right. This is a real example. I'll be very careful how I paraphrase this story. It was along the lines of this Leader has, or more senior leader has, been put on a performance we'll call it performance improvement plan and because of that, then went to their direct reports, who were like team leaders, and said because I'm on one, you're on one. What? What have I done? Well, I'm on one, so you've got to be on one now. So just suck it up. Retaliation Actually seen and heard that happen. What the F is that about?
Lisa Butler:I think my worst example of that was when we were in Iraq. We had six weeks left until the end of the tour and one of my soldiers needed to go home early because his wife was really struggling. And we were letting people go home at this point because the tour was coming to a close. So I went to see my boss and said you know, I need to send him back, we can absolutely manage without him. And he said he's not going anywhere. If I'm here, he's here.
Craig McHugh:God, but it's just the complete lack of awareness that you know what if you do that one thing. What if you do that one thing? If you show that kindness, do you know how much you'll get back from that person in the future?
Lisa Butler:yeah, exactly, I sent him back. Anyway I went. Oh well, good for you, it's just like, um, the competition thing.
Craig McHugh:I've definitely seen where, yeah, where, where, and I think this, this comes from, from you know, not sharing things, micromanagement or doing everything yourself. It can manifest in lots of different forms, but it's where the leader feels that they are the best or they feel threatened by and again. I see this so often they feel threatened by by people within their team or people who are less senior to them because they might know more or they might be displaying things that are really great and it's showing them up or whatever. But there's this real big sense of competition and I think from the competition can come retaliation. Those two are closely linked.
Craig McHugh:And then there's a closed-mindedness. To be a leader, you have to have an open mind. Somebody else I'll same, andrew, but this was a good one. You know've got to be curious. You've got to ask questions. Yeah, you've got to be open. Have we got any others? We got a few others. So big ego we've talked about that. Leadership is not about you at all. It's about other people and what you do for them. You serve them, not the other way around. Lack of empathy, so again linked into kindness, emotional intelligence. So fiona here has put a lack of knowledge. So I think some knowledge is good, is needed, but you don't have to know, you don't have to be the person that knows absolutely everything.
Craig McHugh:That's what the team is for for me but yeah I think some knowledge is really really good, um, and I think that's it from the responses I got, so some really good ones. So what I'm thinking in, thinking in, so what it is now, unless you've got anything else to add, I'm wondering should we do, um, a LYL podcast, ponder point, and then maybe in our next episode I know I've touched on a few of them already but we go through and actually just decide and maybe come up with a final three good leadership behaviors or characteristics. What do you reckon?
Lisa Butler:yeah, that sounds great yeah, cool.
Craig McHugh:What would be your? So, based on what we've talked about um today, what would be your lyl podcast ponder point I would like to turn the mirror on.
Lisa Butler:So, if you are in a leadership role, what do you think are your best behaviours or characteristics as a leader, and what are your worst?
Craig McHugh:Wow, so you're inviting people to actually determine that for themselves. Yeah, that's awesome. That's really good.
Lisa Butler:I love that and actually go one step further. You're feeling really courageous to go and ask members of your team that question.
Craig McHugh:Yes, yes, get feedback. Yes, yes, yes, yes, I don't think I can top that, but the one that's running around my head is in terms of your behaviour and your characteristics, what are you doing or not doing that is impacting the environment you're creating that enables your people to be their best? That's what I would say. So really think deeply about. Am I creating an environment where my people can be their best? Is there anything I'm doing that is helping with that, or is there anything that I'm doing that isn't helping with that? So kind of similar I'd probably say but yeah, that'd be my one. Lovely stuff. I can't wait to have a look at these good ones and to come up with a final three.
Craig McHugh:So, everyone, thank you for watching and listening on. Whichever channel you're watching and listening on, please give us a like, a follow or a subscribe, because it just helps us get our conversations out even further and join us next time when we are going to have a look at the top leadership behaviors and characteristics. So see you next time, see ya. And there we have it the latest edition of the living, your learning podcast. We really hope you enjoyed it. Now, please don't forget to give us a like, a follow or a subscribe on whichever channel you are listening or watching on, and we really look forward to you joining us next time.
