The Living Your Learning Podcast
Exploring all things leadership, learning and everything in between; The Living Your Learning Podcast is the place for top chats, awesome insights and a splash of inspiration that will light the way to awesome leaders, amazing teams and even a better you!
The Living Your Learning Podcast
Episode Seven | The Traits of Exceptional Leadership
Keywords:
Leadership, Empathy, Collaboration, Emotional Intelligence, Kindness, Self-Awareness, Communication, Courage, Leadership Energy, Leadership Development, Leadership Traits, Leaders, Leadership Behaviour, Leadership Skills, Leadership Qualities.
Summary:
What separates truly great leaders from those who merely hold leadership positions? This question drives our exploration into the essence of exceptional leadership in today's complex world.
Leadership excellence isn't found in authority or control but emerges from specific behaviours and characteristics that create environments where people flourish. Through candid conversation and community insights, we unveil the leadership traits that consistently make the difference between teams that struggle and those that soar.
The research is clear: leaders with contagious positive energy drive higher performance, greater innovation, and stronger workplace cohesion. Yet this energy manifests differently across leadership styles; from the quietly confident to the openly enthusiastic. What matters isn't personality type but authenticity and impact.
We dive deep into five critical leadership characteristics: leadership energy, curiosity, kindness, communication, and courage. Each represents a cornerstone of leadership that inspires rather than demands, connects rather than controls. The most powerful revelation? Kindness stands as the non-negotiable quality that underpins all effective leadership.
Whether you're an aspiring leader, a seasoned executive, or simply interested in creating positive change around you, this episode offers practical wisdom for developing leadership that genuinely works. The question isn't whether you have a title that designates leadership; it's whether you bring the energy, curiosity, kindness, communication, and courage that creates an environment where both people and performance can thrive.
Takeaways:
Collaboration is key to successful leadership.
Emotional awareness is crucial for effective leadership.
Courageous conversations are necessary for growth.
Empathy and Kindness should be fundamental leadership traits.
Self-awareness enhances leadership effectiveness.
Leaders should continuously develop their skills.
Positive energy from leaders can inspire teams.
Communication should be considerate and inclusive.
Leadership confidence can manifest in various ways.
Further Reading:
https://hbr.org/2022/04/the-best-leaders-have-a-contagious-positive-energy
Get In Touch:
If you would like to develop yours or your organisations's leadership capability, we'd love to help you, so please do get in touch.
Craig's Email:
craig@livingyourlearning.com
and
Lisa's Email:
lisabutlercoaching@gmail.com
Further Information:
Also check LYL's In-Person and Online Leadership Development services at:
Hello and welcome back to the Living your Learning podcast. Exploring all things leadership, learning and everything in between. The Living your Learning podcast is the place for top chats, awesome insights and a splash of inspiration that will light the way to awesome leaders, amazing teams and even a better you, and on this episode we're deep diving into what great leadership is. So we really hope you enjoy this one. And hello everyone. I don't know why I elongated that. Anyway, hello everyone. Welcome back to the Living your Learning podcast with me, mchugh and the amazing Lisa Butler. Hello.
Craig McHugh:So, lisa, last time I had a little bit of a rant about leadership behavior, didn't I? Which I'm not sure it's quite off my chest, but it definitely helped and we had a really amazing conversation about leadership and rubbish crap leadership and we started getting into some things around what great leadership is. So, yeah, we thought that we would dive into that a bit deeper in this episode and and really get to the bottom of some and maybe define, help to find for people, some, what some really great leadership behaviors and characteristics are, because I think we were fairly clear on what the rubbish ones are and, um, and you know, looking, um, if we look at the people, the comments that people added to my leadership behaviors post, that there's definitely a link between all of the all the behaviors good or bad that are coming out. So, yeah, I think we're really clear on the bad ones. So, um, let's, let's dive further, um, and have more of a conversation, because I know we started last time around these good ones, so where did you want to start?
Lisa Butler:I'm wondering if we go to the comments and have a and just walk your way through those good idea right.
Craig McHugh:First one on the list is um, olivia. So, um, if anyone wants to go and um, hunt out the post um, go on my linkedin profile and you'll. You'll see it. There's a bright orange one. Uh, all the images, um. So her, her bad ones are great, really good, and she's put some really good kind of reasons why as well, but her good ones are, yeah, they're brilliant empathy, communication and influence, and I'm actually I'm going to read out a little bit of why. Best leaders I work with are amazing at empathizing, which really helps build trust and strengthen relationships. They listen to understand and always seek to make your life easier. Oh my God, that's amazing. They communicate with purpose. That's great. They set clear expectations. They feedback with positive intent. They set the examples. Finally, they're great at getting people and keeping people on the journey, reinforcing the why, reminding of your part, the part that you play, and the impact that has on the outcome, which is the influence bit. I love those ones. They're great, awesome, olivia, if you're listening, nice one. What do you reckon to those?
Lisa Butler:yeah, she summed it up really nicely, yeah, so important, so, so important.
Craig McHugh:And, yeah, I'm not sure I can add much, but the, I think the empathy thing and and I know when we talked about the bad ones, um, we may not mention it specifically too many times, but but the empathy thing really came out for me in the bad ones, or lack of empathy, lack of kindness, that empathy is so important. You know, you've got a real human being in front of you, that that has feelings, that has that challenges, that has aspirations. So, yeah, understand them, empathize with them. You don't have to agree or disagree, you don't have to like it or dislike it, but you do have to see things through their eyes so that you can understand them and empathize their perspectives.
Craig McHugh:That one is so, so important for me. It really really is. What else have we got? So so important for me? It really really is. Uh, what else have we got? Um, okay, so I did these the other way, the other way, the wrong way around, should I say last time, darren, but I'm going to say them again because they're great. So here's his good ones, although I did them as lack of last time authenticity, kindness and vulnerability, really important, um, andrew, oh, these ones are good. Curiosity, care in brackets, giving a crap and collaboration. What about those ones, lisa?
Lisa Butler:I love that he wrote that I used to have, um, when I was early on, was writing taglines and I used to say I work with leaders who give a shit about their people. Um, and somebody said you can't write that why?
Craig McHugh:not you, so can don't go away. No, I love that, um, but yeah, that curiosity I think we mentioned it last time. You know, ask questions, find out stuff. You're not going to know all of the answers and yeah, that care. Uh, why is care so important, are you asking me? Sorry that was a question for you, lisa. In your opinion, why is care so important?
Lisa Butler:because human beings need to feel seen and cared for in order to flourish. In my opinion, um, our job is not to mollycoddle and all of those kind of things, but it is to allow people to feel like they are cared for and valued so this for me, um links back to our last episode, or not last episode, the one before that about motivation, and we talked about the motivation pyramid.
Craig McHugh:There's huge links here, isn't?
Lisa Butler:there, yeah, yeah huge links.
Craig McHugh:So linking to that belonging one, the self-esteem one as well, the safety one, security one, some huge links there. So, yeah, good one, andrew. And what I'd really love to because I've been speaking to a lot of people about the Andrew's third one here collaboration a lot recently, but what, what? Your thoughts on the importance of collaboration, particularly from a leadership perspective?
Lisa Butler:it's really interesting because obviously I've come from a background where I tell people what to do and they do it, um, but very quickly realized that what's that sometimes that's needed.
Craig McHugh:You just sometimes, you just have people.
Lisa Butler:You have to tell people, for whatever reason but having a command and control approach to leadership all of the time doesn't always work, whereas actually the approach of guys we've got to get this done by this time. This is the boundaries, this is what, this is the expectation. How do we do that best? What are your ideas?
Lisa Butler:that gets people on board straight away, because their opinion is valued, their expertise is valued and it's like you care about them as part of the team. Enough to ask their opinion and to see that as part of the solution. That's great.
Craig McHugh:A million percent, yeah, a million percent. That, leaders, you have a team. For a reason you are not an island. There is. There is no I in team, is that the phrase? But yeah, it's about working with people. If you want to get results, if you want to be successful, you have to collaborate and not put barriers up. It's so, so important working with people and involving people and getting their opinions and getting their thoughts and their ideas and creating their environment where people are are confident and comfortable enough to put their hand up and go.
Craig McHugh:Well, actually, I'm not sure about that. What about this? Or actually no, I don't agree and things like that, because that's how stuff gets done, that's how in a, that's how creativity um flourishes and innovation happens is when you collaborate and you involve people rather than just tell, tell, tell, tell. Now, there will always be things you have to tell people because it's business, critical or or critical for you know um, a a speed kind of quickness reason, or even you know a danger type reason, but then you go back and explain it afterwards and you involve people in the reasons why afterwards. But yeah, you're right, you have to involve people. Collaboration is key.
Lisa Butler:And that also helps to set the foundations of the psychological safety, because if you're not including everybody, then how can they possibly feel safe exactly?
Craig McHugh:that yeah exactly that.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, three. All these ones are good, um, their own emotional awareness, their communication and not afraid to have tough conversations. And ability and the ability to admit when things don't work or they screw up. And role modeling. I mean emotional awareness. For me, the the five number one skills every leader needs is self-awareness be able to self-regulate, manage your emotions, to be able to not only look after and develop your motivation but also help others do theirs. Empathy and social skills. You get those and you're really good at those. Everything else will start to fall into place afterwards. So, yeah, emotional awareness is so important. I mean the stories I hear from people, from people I work with or even kind of friends and family, where they say, oh, such and such leader did this today and I'm like what? And they're still in a job because they have that. Just the lack of awareness is just insane and it really does have a really significant impact. But when you have lots of awareness again, it makes such a difference. Where are you on that one? Any thoughts on that one, lisa?
Lisa Butler:Yeah, I think emotional awareness is super, super important and yeah, I just think they're really, really strong ones. There is nothing worse than somebody who is in a leadership role who pretends that they didn't have anything to do with the thing that went wrong or that they made a mistake.
Lisa Butler:Yes, they didn't have anything to do with the thing that went wrong or that they made. Yes, yes. And also, what that shows is when they refuse to, won't or whatever it is, are unable to accept their responsibility, in that what they teach everybody else is you can't make a mistake, you can't be open about that, you've got to keep quiet. So, being able to have the humility to say, yeah, I messed up there, you actually, by being really vulnerable, by being really open, you shine a light for the rest of everybody else to go. Oh well, if the boss said he messed up, then absolutely I can say that too absolutely that and it's so, so impactful.
Craig McHugh:And I think, as well you know, it might be something that the leader hasn't specifically done themselves, but maybe the team has dropped the ball on something or made a mistake or an error. For me, the leader is the one that goes yeah, that's me, that's on me. You protect your team. As I said, I think, in the last episode, you take the blame, but you never take the glory. The glory goes to the team, but you always take the blame Because that's why you're in a leadership position. It blame because that's what, that's why you that's why you're in a leadership position is. It's very selfless and yeah, yeah, absolutely, really love that one.
Craig McHugh:Um, oh, I think this is interesting from from carrie not afraid to have tough conversations. See, I, 100 agree with that, but you've got to be so careful about how you you should. You should absolutely have them and you should be clear and you should be honest, and you should be be honest and you should be direct, but you've got to be careful. How haven't you? Yes, so what's the ideal way to have a tough conversation?
Lisa Butler:So I don't call them challenging conversations. I call them courageous conversations. Yeah, and I think it's about looking at the issue rather than the person.
Craig McHugh:Yes, agreed.
Lisa Butler:And then looking at what's the outcome here, what's, yes, agreed, and then looking at what's the outcome here, what, what's the what's the evidence to that we're looking at, that's the issue and what's the outcome we're looking for and what's the best way to get there yeah, I couldn't agree more with that.
Craig McHugh:Make it about the thing, not the person, and also remove any victim, villain stuff. You've got going on as a leader so, oh, you know, I'm the victim. This shouldn't, this shouldn't have gone wrong and they're the villain. It's all their fault. So remove the blame game. Um, it's just no good. It really isn't any good. And, yeah, just have a conversation. Okay, this has happened. Um, what can we do to fix it and what can we do to prevent it from happening next time? Great, let's get on with it.
Lisa Butler:Yeah that's it, yeah that's it for me.
Lisa Butler:Um yeah, good one sorry that goes back to the leader having the um, the language to be able to say things in a way that isn't personal and to have a structure and a framework of how they have those conversations. So I worked with an organization once and talked to them about creating a literally a framework for those conversations so that when somebody started a conversation with I need to have a courageous conversation with you Instantly the other person is on, the is on the wagon. They're like, OK, cool, because they know what's coming. When this happened, I felt blah, because this is what the outcome was.
Craig McHugh:This is what I need going forward.
Lisa Butler:Can we have a? Would you be willing to have a conversation about how we can improve this for the next time, type thing. And some people, some people are like, well, that's just really formulaic. And I'm like, well, it only is until you're really comfortable with the language. But if it's just a standard thing that you all have a thing that you say there's nothing, it's not about you, it's about we're trying to get to this collective vision purpose and the thing that's just happened does not take us there. The thing that you did does not align with the values that we have in this organization we need some conversation about that yeah, yeah, I couldn't agree more love that it's.
Craig McHugh:I think it's linked to this next one, accountability, and I think you could sum all of this up within role modeling and being a role model. Um, you know, leading by example, so to speak, but for me it's also no. Do you know those occasions where, um, a leader will be telling someone off and it's like, oh, this is not coming from me, it's coming from above. But really, come on, that's a cop out and they're blaming on others, um, or the um, or the bit where they're, they're leading by fear, by saying, oh, you know the powers that be, they're not happy. I mean, really, come on, that's just such a crap thing to do. You know, take ownership, take accountability. If you're not happy with something, then have a conversation and get it fixed, don't do that crap stuff.
Lisa Butler:You know, I've got a South African friend who absolutely will tell me when something is not right, and I really appreciate her candidness and honesty. Now, I didn't to start with, but it is culturally we don't do that and if we do, we take offense. So there's a lack of confidence to say what needs to be said and a lack of um, yeah, lack of accountability to just listen and go yeah, you're right, yeah you're right, I messed up. I need to do this differently next time yeah, a million percent, million percent.
Craig McHugh:Um, what have you got? Or yours, well, yours would be good. Um, you've got integrity, courage and humility. Do you want to tell us about your?
Lisa Butler:three. So for me, integrity is not just doing the right thing when no one's looking, but it's at every level. So asking ourselves is the decision that I'm making congruent with my values, with the business values? Um is how I'm behaving? Is it who I want to be as a boss? Is it's the it's? It's really big. I think integrity is a really big part of it, but it's the willingness to look in the mirror really look in the mirror.
Lisa Butler:Um, the courage piece is about just allowing yourself to, to, to harness that everyday courage so that you're making it's those micro moments where that matter, rather than just thinking about. Courage is a big piece, it's. It is the challenging conversation, it is the. I'm an introvert, I find it really difficult to talk to people, but I'm going to go and say good morning to craig and ask him how his weekend was. That's like just harnessing it, like it's important, and then the humility is just. I guess I'm using that as a catch-all phrase for remembering that. Maybe.
Lisa Butler:How remembering that the people in front of you are human beings, they are not robots yeah don't forget your humanity and have the humility to, to make mistakes and, like for me, humility just adds, or it encompasses, so many different things.
Craig McHugh:Being kind, yeah, yeah yeah, I love those and, um, I'm gonna link it. I'm not sure if it is, but I'm gonna link it anyway. But and I think I mentioned it when we talked about the really bad leadership behaviors but is is making it about the other person and not about you. I can't stress that enough. And and again, I see it so often where it's all about the leader makes it all about them. It's what they've done, it's what, how good they are, or how, how they're feeling or not feeling or whatever, and there's just this just complete lack of acknowledgement or recognition that there's other people, human beings, here. Yeah, it's just, it's just, yeah, rubbish. So do these things there Right? So, some really good, some really good behaviours and characteristics. I just want to make sure I haven't missed any, oh okay.
Craig McHugh:So here's fiona, confidence, knowledge again. I think knowledge, um is good, but also surround yourself by people that know well, more than you. Um, kindness and confidence. So kindness, we've talked a lot about. Yeah, you have to be kind as a leader. That doesn't mean you can't hold people to account, though. It doesn't mean you can't have those tough conversations, but you can show empathy and you can be kind in terms of what you say and how you say it. This is a really interesting one for me. Where do you sit with confidence as a good characteristic for a leader?
Lisa Butler:So I guess you don't want someone in front of you. If we think about leadership as being as inspiring others, do you want to be the person who's really does sorry, does a leader who is really quiet and mousy and doesn't really speak up and is quiet, you know, just is that? Is that inspiring? Those can also be really inspiring people by what comes out of their mouth, not the volume at which it comes out of. So I wonder if confidence is actually a self-assurance yeah, that's good.
Craig McHugh:I like that because I have a. I have a huge problem with confidence. Um, to be honest with you, um, that you know that people, there's a lot of thing around oh, you have to be confident, you have to be confident, blah, blah, blah. You don't have to be confident. Yeah, not feeling confident doesn't feel very good. It doesn't mean you can't do stuff.
Craig McHugh:You know, I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before, but back in the day when I was an L&D manager overseeing a learning development department, you know people on their annual appraisals there would be a bit for personal development and people would say what courses they would, would want to go on, and we would, we would extract all of that and then put on loads of courses. Anyway, I was just talking to this one person who, um, who, who's who, wanted to go on an assertiveness course and, um, we didn't have any on at that moment in time, but we were gonna, we were gonna put some on and I said, by the way, why do you, why do you need to go on an assertiveness course? Oh, my manager put it in my appraisal because I don't come across as very confident, so I need to go on a certainness course, excuse me. Well, it was literally the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life but again, what behaviors do we?
Lisa Butler:what would we expect to see which would indicate somebody is confident?
Craig McHugh:Exactly. But does it matter? It wasn't impacting their performance. It's just that there was a misconception that well, I think there was a couple. But in order to be good at your job, you have to be confident and you have to be assertive. Well, no, you don't. And then the other misconception was well, what personal development do you want? Well, I don't know. Well, let's chuck you on an assertiveness course. Then let's pick the first one on the list in the alphabet assertiveness. But yeah, I just don't buy into that at all, because you know you can not be confident and still be perfectly good at your job. You know, you just might be a bit more reserved, doesn't mean you're yeah I just have a real big trouble with confidence and I'm not too sure.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, it's hard to explain, but you know what I mean.
Lisa Butler:I think it's just a little bit of a misused thing so, but I wonder if the association with what confidence is is the problem. So if I say, if I say, oh, he, she, they are confident, what's the first association you have with that word?
Craig McHugh:The first thing that comes to my mind is brash.
Lisa Butler:So the thing that comes to mind for me is self-assured.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it?
Lisa Butler:Because I think that we've been sold a story that confidence looks like blah, blah blah, especially in the workplace. But you can be very quietly confident, just getting your stuff you just don't need to be the loudest person in the room that's super interesting, isn't it super interesting?
Craig McHugh:wow, fiona, you've um, opened up a a can of um. What name there that? Maybe that's a whole other episode confidence, um. But yeah, I like, I like your, your, your, your definition there that to be self-assured, to be able to make those decisions when you need to make those decisions, that for me, is really, really key. Yeah, I love that. That's really good, cool. So they're the ones that we've got that people have shared with us. So there was a couple of other things that you wanted to talk about. So let's now try and if it's OK, lisa, you, you know we've got everyone's opinion. You put your two pennies worth in there, but is it worth trying to maybe see where we can take this and come up with three that cover everything?
Lisa Butler:so I just wanted to touch on energy, um oh, yeah, tell us about that just I feel like these are the ones who are. I feel like you can feel the positive energy coming from them. They are. They're the ones that are saying come on, let's go, we can do this. Oh, come on, this is, this is where we're going. Who's on board? I feel like it's. Those people, rather than you, are going to do this um yes and energetically call me witchy. Whatever, we are all balls of energy, right.
Craig McHugh:Oh yeah, totally, I'm totally into that.
Lisa Butler:If I'm prickly, if I've got prickly energy, then it kind of prickles, don't really like each other, kind of repel each other. But actually if we've got like a welcoming, warm, inviting, inspiring, orangey, reddy, yellowy kind of vibe going on, I think people are far more okay. Let's go, let's do this Now. You might not need that kind of vibe and this is just my colours, by the way. You know if you're going to, because you all need leadership and finance and you know I personally can't get all red and yellow and orange about finance, but there are those who do and can and must and need to. But I think it's just really important about understanding when we are standing in front of people as their leader, what are the vibes that we're giving off? You talk about a shadow, but like what am I giving out? Totally, I can feel people's energy when I walk past them and sometimes I'll be like oh yeah yeah, you can.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. So you reminded me of something and I've just like been desperately, just without trying to be obvious, scroll through my, my um, my linkedin posts, and I put one up about four months ago and, honestly, here is the post. I don't know if you've ever seen it, but I shared an article, um, from the harvard business review. Uh, they got some great stuff on there. I subscribed to them. It's only like 10 a month or whatever. Um, some great articles and the article is called. Many people can see it if you're on video. It's the um. The best leaders have contagious, positive energy.
Lisa Butler:Get in. I am so far ahead of the world, not the world, I'm just so far ahead of myself.
Craig McHugh:Sometimes it's scary, it is it is Seriously, and I will write down a link article. I'm just writing a note down to remind me. I'm going to put the link to the article in the show notes. It's a really super good article that talks about the importance of positive relational energy. Uh, it talks about accessing relational energy. Um, so leaders are themselves far higher performers. They positively impact others. Performance um, they exist in greater numbers at high performing organizations. The organization will have greater innovation, teamwork, financial performance and workplace cohesion. These, with these leaders and employees, have greater job satisfaction, well-being, engagement, performance and relationships with family. So impacts inside and outside of the workplace. So what makes positively energising leaders so successful? Hold on, there's a few things here. Let me see if I can find them. There's too much for me to paraphrase. Go and read the article. It's a really good article, though, and you're so right and you didn't even necessarily know it. There is research that proves that the best leaders have this stuff.
Lisa Butler:Well done you thank you and actually just to follow on from that in workshops I always talk about in challenging conversations is understanding what energy you're bringing into that circumstance. Like if the last time you interacted with Peter and you had an argument and you left him thinking, god, you're bringing into that circumstance. Like if the last time you interacted with peter and you had an argument and you left him thinking, god, you're a knob. Like are you still feeling that before he will?
Craig McHugh:million percent, you are a million percent like.
Lisa Butler:Are you stood there literally with your, with your rifle cocked ready to smack him in the face as he walked in, or are you like, arms wide, really good to see you. Thanks for coming to see me. I would really love to have a conversation about this, like just what are we bringing forward with us?
Craig McHugh:what totally yeah, yeah, but but again this comes. I think this comes down to your, your self-awareness as well your emotional intelligence, if you want to bring this great energy which has proven, was called this article, but I don't, I don't doubt the person that wrote it, um, you know it's. It's been written for, um. Well, somebody from the yale school of management, uh, faculty member, phd, um, so I would say, probably knows what they're talking about, um, but yeah, if you want to have this great um energy, you've got to have great emotional intelligence in order to be able to bring that and to be able to know what's going on and how you're impacting things. And do you know what it's? It's so true.
Craig McHugh:I mean the one person, so the two leaders that have been amazing for me in my life I mentioned in the last episode, mentioned a few times Peter Wakefield, cliff Gerrard. They had this in abundance, but in very different ways. One a bit more outgoing, one a bit more more, more reserved, a bit quieter, but had this in abundance. The other person um, there's two people I've come across that I think have this as well. Actually, one is my wife, pam. She just oozes it and her team will literally run through walls for her. It's amazing, and the other person that I think has this is you okay thank you you literally, it's just exude it, thanks.
Craig McHugh:So what do you do?
Lisa Butler:what do you mean to?
Craig McHugh:exude. So so what? What? What is it that you're? Because I, I think you've got this, this energy. Are you able to articulate or share for people what you're doing to bring this energy? Sorry to put you on the spot, but I think, honestly, I think you've got it okay, uh, what do I do?
Lisa Butler:um, I didn't. Well, I don't think I harnessed it. I have always been super enthusiastic about anyone that I work with. I've always really cared deeply about my people and I've been excited to work with them on whatever the project is so important.
Lisa Butler:Um, I've always worn my heart on my sleeve, but I think the difference now is just, I've done a lot, a lot of self-work over the past 13 years, like a lot, and therapeutically and shamanically and all sorts of stuff like that, and I at the risk of sounding like a complete, I don't know what I kind of see myself like a ball of energy, that's how I view myself.
Lisa Butler:So when I walk around, I can feel I'm like today, I feel like I'm yellow energy and I just visualise myself as a yellow energy ball in a human skin walking around, not because I'm trying to put it on, but that's just how I feel and and I can really like that. Again, some people are like whoa, don't like that. But when I bump into someone's gray energy, I'm like whoa, whoa, okay, and I'm like but I, but you'll adapt, I assume huh, you'll adapt to that, assume. Huh.
Craig McHugh:You'll adapt to that energy.
Lisa Butler:Yeah, absolutely. But I've learned how to put protection around my energy. I've learned how to access it, I've learned how to recognise when it's low. I know what I need to put in place to protect it, and I honour it now, whereas before I wouldn't have even had the first idea of what that looked like.
Craig McHugh:So will you dial down your energy depending on what the, or dial up depending what the other person is bringing?
Lisa Butler:yeah, yeah, so I guess, so I guess, and that ties in with leadership style as well. I used to think there was only one way to do leadership, and now I realize that it is a. It is a response to what's in front of you and what's needed at that time. Um, and if somebody, I'm, I'm, I feel like I'm very intuitive to people and I can sense if they're, you know where they are, are they up in energy, down in energy or whatever?
Craig McHugh:So can I just say something? Craig, I'm laughing. Do you remember what you said in our last episode? Do you remember what you said before we hit record?
Lisa Butler:No when I said about feeling.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, you said, oh, I'm feeling something, craig. So you do you sense it? Because I, I was, I was, I was as of how I this stuff we're talking about is so important to me. It really, really is, and I care a lot about it and and it does upset me when I see the crap stuff we talked about last time. It really does deeply affect me and I was ready to rock and roll and I had a little bit of a rant, but before we, when we first came on, and before we I hit record, you were like, oh, you could sense it, couldn't you?
Craig McHugh:yeah and I wasn't even.
Lisa Butler:I was just trying to be me, but you could sense it yeah, the other thing I think is the acknowledgement and acceptance of my own strengths, which for the longest time I didn't. Honestly, for the longest time I did not think I was a very good leader at all. So when I left the army, I never wanted to work in industry, I never thought I would be a leader. I thought I was a rubbish leader because I'd been told so many times that I was all of these things which now I've learned that those are my absolute strengths, those are the gifts that I have.
Lisa Butler:I'm able to really embrace them, whereas me 15 years ago would not have. I would definitely not talked about having energy and all that kind of stuff. You know, I'd have just been like, oh, I'm a bit too nice and I'm I care a bit too much, as if it was something wrong, whereas now I'm like no, fuck, that's my absolute superpower and I'm realizing that not everyone leads like I lead and not everyone has the gifts and we are all different and I'm just embracing what I've got but you know, I think you know, not everyone has to bring your energy.
Craig McHugh:I bring a different energy and I hope that when I'm leading, that energy works. But you know, I still, I still like to think I adapt and we all bring our different energies. But it's about how we bring that energy, because, regardless of what type you bring, they've all got so much to offer and to give. You just got to bring it in the right way. And then if you're yeah, if you're you're coming up against somebody who's bringing something different or needs something different, then you dial up or dial down and you tweak the dab. It's going back to the colors thing that we always talk about, isn't it? Um? And do you know what, my friend? The world is so much a better place for you having done all of that work, and and now doing what you do.
Lisa Butler:Thank you, that's very kind of you to say no, I mean it.
Craig McHugh:Um, you so wow, so that I wasn't expecting that to go where it did, um, but there's so many things coming out now. Was there one other thing that you wanted to mention? You had energy, and you had one other thing, didn't you, was it?
Lisa Butler:manner.
Craig McHugh:No, it was manner, but I think that just comes out in our style, and things like that, yeah, I do so out of everything that we've talked about and, by the way, I think that everything is really linked. But there's a few things that I've that I've written down here for for maybe trying to to get to our final three, or we might, we can squeeze to four or five if we have to, but I think energy is definitely one of them that has to be on our list. So leadership energy has to be on our list of leadership behaviors and characteristics and I'm bringing that um in whatever way you bring it, because you can bring it in lots of different ways, but that contagious, positive energy. You don't have to be the yellow ball of energy, like lisa, um, necessarily. And or you don't have to be the kind of the the blue, which is the opposite um ball of energy, like me. You could be the green ball of energy, which is a bit more empathetic, or you could be the red ball of energy, which is a bit more empathetic, or you could be the red ball of energy, which is very driven and results focused. So there's lots of ways to bring it. So I think leadership energy is definitely one.
Craig McHugh:The few other things I've written down here is, but I think one of them is. I think one is linked to energy, the whole self-awareness, emotional intelligence, communication thing. I think that's all linked in with that is the energy you bring. But I do think you have to be very self-aware and very emotionally intelligent to be able to bring that. The other thing I've written down that came to mind and again we have mentioned it every single episode is self-reflection. Does that deserve a place in our top three?
Lisa Butler:does that not come under self-awareness?
Craig McHugh:I suppose it does. Yeah, that's a good argument. Yeah, it could do.
Craig McHugh:I just want to make a point of it, though, again um well, I've also written down self-development, because we've talked a lot about on on most of the episodes so far. But but particularly what you said there about all of the work that you've put in and we, I can't remember, can't quite remember this conversation or the last. The last episode where we talked about the bad characteristics is you know, those leaders are saying no, I don't need to develop, I've got I've got a degree in leadership, I've been a leader for 25 years when they are exactly the people that need to develop, to develop so I'm wondering if, as well as leadership, energy is continuous development yeah, and with that comes the willingness to develop oh okay, so that's good.
Craig McHugh:So what does that come under? The willingness? Is that a thing in itself, and it's not necessarily a willingness to to develop? Is it a willingness to lead in the right way, or I'm not sure what to call it?
Lisa Butler:yeah, but I think you're on to a willingness to be open to the possibility that well, it's a willingness to just be curious. I think and accept that none of us know everything and there is always opportunity to learn.
Craig McHugh:Love that. So we've got leadership, energy and we've got curiosity. So curiosity is definitely on our list. I love that because that encompasses so much not only learning, self-reflection even. Yeah, that covers so much that curiosity. I really love that. Being open-minded, so on and so forth. Okay, is there a third?
Lisa Butler:I've got communication and kindness, oh so maybe we've got four.
Craig McHugh:Okay, kindness definitely has to be on the list. Why does? Can you just remind everyone why kindness?
Lisa Butler:has to be on the list. Why does? Can you just remind everyone why kindness has to be on the list? Um, because, just because kindness is just I don't even know why I'm explaining it. Just be bloody kind like. Don't be a knob, don't be horrible, don't be mean. There's no need for it, just be kind you know what I was.
Craig McHugh:You know what reason I'm laughing? Because as I as the words came out of my mouth, I'm thinking why does this even need an explanation? And you know what? The reason I'm laughing is? Because, as the words came out of my mouth, I'm thinking why does this even need an explanation?
Lisa Butler:And do you know what I?
Craig McHugh:think part of my sometimes my frustration and upset, is that why are we having to have a conversation about people being kind? It's beyond me.
Lisa Butler:I just want to say on that point, I led a facilitation last year and young aspiring leaders course and a young lad came up to me afterwards and he said I've never been on a course where they taught us to be kind. Wow, so he had been. He said all of the people that I work with, all the people in charge, shout, bellow, push, just get it done. I thought that's how you had to be a leader. I didn't realise it was okay to be kind.
Craig McHugh:I just don't know what to say.
Lisa Butler:And this is a discussion for another day. I wonder if that ties into this whole social construct that we have around, how people, particularly men, are meant to show up in the world and actually, if we were to really help people to understand what kindness could look like and what it does look like, actually realize that it's not a weakness and that it's welcome and needed, because the world needs. The world needs some kindness, right, right.
Craig McHugh:Can I read you something, of course? So this was a program I watched on Discovery Channel. I'm into all my Discovery Channel-type programs and this was do you know the guy like the adventurer, ed Stafford? He used to be in the army as well, he used to be in the military, and he does all these adventure programs where he dumps himself out in the middle of nowhere and he's got survive on, like you know, berries and twigs and stuff anyway.
Craig McHugh:So there's one of one of these programs and I, I, actually I, I was like rewind, pause, rewind, pause to write this down and and I just want to read it to you because it really, really links to what you just said the definition of being a man today, it's the ability to be vulnerable, I think, isn't it. It's the ability to be honest, it's the ability to bear your soul and talk about things that the old version of man wouldn't have done, because that's what life's about, isn't it? It's not beating the other person, it's making sure the other person is okay. I don't know about you, but I've literally got a lump in my throat, but what's that amazing?
Lisa Butler:it is, and what he's describing is a is a different masculinity. It's real masculinity, I think a million percent.
Craig McHugh:A million percent, but, but that, but that, also, for me, is an essence of leadership, right there. Yeah, I love that. Um, so we've got leadership energy, we've got curiosity, we've got kindness, and you mentioned communication, didn't you? Yeah, so is there any specifics around communication that are important to just remind people of?
Lisa Butler:My penance worth would be. There's more than one way to communicate a message, and if you don't know how to do it differently, then there's no shame in learning a different way.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Learning a different way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I would.
Craig McHugh:I would add to that um, bringing, I would add to that actually bring all of the other three things into play your energy, your curiosity, your kindness, before you even think about opening your mouth yeah and just consider what you're saying and the impact that that might have on the other person or how that person might interpret that, because we all interpret things in different ways, we all perceive things in slightly different ways or we have slightly different realities. That's what I would say about that. Really carefully consider your communication and bring your your energy, your best energy, your curiosity, your kindness um that consideration and then open your mouth yeah, um, my last one is to be courageous oh, we are going to go for a fifth I think we're on six.
Craig McHugh:Actually, I've got a leadership energy. Oh yeah, I miss self-development. Yeah, but I think we put that in with curiosity oh, okay, cool um so courageousness. Yeah, you can totally have this one um courage.
Lisa Butler:Go on, tell us why um, I just think it's so. Being courageous is not about being fearless. It's not about sort of just going in and doing whatever. I think it's about facing your fears, doing it anyway, doing the right thing, standing up for what you believe in, standing up for your people. It's like listening, it's all of it. But being courageous can often be really unpopular and it can be really the last thing that people want to be so you can come again.
Lisa Butler:You can come against some, some barriers from other people, but it's courageous and curiosity sit really beautifully together, yeah.
Craig McHugh:I'd agree with that.
Lisa Butler:I think courageous leadership starts with self-leadership, because if you can be courageous there, then everything rolls out from that.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, I'd agree with that. And if you want to hear more about courage, listeners and viewers, go and check out the courage episode that we did a couple of months ago. Now that is a conversation and a half. Is that where you introduce your Gandalf stick? I think it might have been, I can't remember. So, yeah, I totally agree with that. So we've got our top leadership behaviours and characteristics, which I think encompass pretty much everything we've talked about over the past few episodes Leadership, energy, curiosity, kindness, your communication and also your courage as well as a leader. Do you know what? And maybe this is a conversation we should have offline, but I'm just going to mention anyway that right there, lisa is an amazing leadership development program just saying conversation about that yeah, maybe see what we can come up with for our listeners and viewers and the people that we work with and support.
Craig McHugh:Yeah, love that. So, wow, that's amazing. So what's your living? Your learning podcast, ponder point to wrap up.
Lisa Butler:So I do love to turn the mirror on. So this is more about like, what do you bring in the room? So I did the presentation on monday and it was about finding your gundel stick and find your magic. We are really quick to criticize the things we're not good at and we're not fast enough to celebrate the things that we bring into the room. So I would like the listeners to really think about when they are in their flow, when they are doing their thing, and they are just, it's just so easy and natural, and they know that they are in their flow. When they are doing their thing and they are just it's just so easy and natural and they know that they are in their fullest potential as a leader. What, what magic are they bringing in that room? Yeah, and why? Why does that matter?
Craig McHugh:yeah, I love that, yeah, that's really good. Mine's pretty straightforward, actually, and it's based on our list of five things is to really reflect on and think about how you're bringing each of these things so that your leadership, energy, your curiosity, your kindness, your, your communication, your courage and then think about how you can, you can do them in the best way possible so that and linking back to I think, the my, my ponder point in the last episode so that you can create an environment where your people can be and give and show up as their very best. That would be mine. Wow, do you know what I feel? Loads better now.
Craig McHugh:I've we've talked, we've talked about this and talked it through, got a lot off my chest and hopefully, um, well, these two, these couple of episodes, have been really helpful for people. Um, because this is something that affects us all, isn't it? Leadership? It affects every single person in the world in one way or another and, yeah, we just need as good leadership as possible. So, if you are a leader, think carefully about what you're bringing and how you're bringing it and on that bombshell thanks again, lisa Absolutely amazing conversation, really, really really good. And, yeah, I think, um, we will wrap it up there. So, whatever channel you're listening or watching on, please give us a like, a follow or a subscribe, and we both look forward to seeing you next time, see you later bye and there we have it, the latest episode of the Living your Learning podcast.
Craig McHugh:We really hope you enjoyed it. Now, please don't forget. Please give us a like, a follow or subscribe on whichever channel you are watching or listening on, and we really look forward to you joining us next time.
