The Living Your Learning Podcast
Exploring all things leadership, learning and everything in between; The Living Your Learning Podcast is the place for top chats, awesome insights and a splash of inspiration that will light the way to awesome leaders, amazing teams and even a better you!
The Living Your Learning Podcast
Episode Eight | Creating D*ckhead Free Zones
Summary:
Ever caught yourself being your own worst enemy? Our co-hosts Craig and Lisa have.
So, in this funny, raw, honest, but often salty and serious conversation, they deep dive into understanding the inner D*ckhead and how D*ckhead behaviours can not only create barriers to our progress, but also significantly impact our ability to perform at our best.
In addition to this, they also explore what triggers our inner D*ckhead' and through personal examples and reflections, discuss how this negative energy doesn't stay contained, but spills over into our performance, relationships, and environments both at home and at work.
And through introducing the S.T.A.N.D. method, which is a practical framework for addressing these negative behaviours, they explore how to create a space between threat and response, so that you can choose a more constructive way forward. They also explore how to handle other people's difficult D*ckhead behaviours and have courageous conversations when someone's actions are negatively impacting you.
So, whether you're struggling with self-sabotage, managing difficult team dynamics, or simply trying to create healthier relationships; this episode offers practical insights to transform how you relate to yourself and others; resulting in behaviour that doesn't get in the way and D*ckhead Free Zones and environments, where people can thrive without the weight of unhelpful behaviour, excessive criticism, judgment, and fear.
Get In Touch:
To chat about how we can help you, please do get in touch.
Craig's Email:
craig@livingyourlearning.com
Lisa's Email:
lisabutlercoaching@gmail.com
And hello, everybody. Welcome back to the latest episode of the Living Your Learning podcast with me, Craig McHugh. And as always... the amazing Lisa Butler. How are you, Lisa?
Lisa:Yeah, I'm all right, thank you. How are you doing?
Craig:I'm all right, yeah. I'm very excited for our episode today. It's been a few weeks since our last one because we had a special guest session episode in between. So yeah, I'm really looking forward to this one. I think it's going to be an interesting chat. I'm a little bit excited and, yeah, excited. So what are we going to talk about?
Lisa:Okay, so today we're going to talk about your inner dickhead. I
Craig:love Can we talk about like other dickheads as well?
Lisa:Yeah, you can. It's all anonymised.
Craig:We won't name them though.
Lisa:So for context listeners, yesterday Craig and I had a chat, casual friend chat about how we were getting on with our various projects. And we were kind of looking at all the things that were not going well and sort of lamenting that, you know, it just wasn't, it just wasn't where we wanted it to be. And then we started to reflect the mirror back on ourselves and ask the question of. d have I done this have I done that what am I doing what am I not doing and it was we kind of just got to a point where we're like well actually there's no one else in the room it's just it's just us being the dickhead here so what can we do to recognize when we are and how can we help you to kind of recognize when you are maybe being the dickhead or whether there is a dickhead in the room so I'm not quite sure where this is going to go to be honest with you we haven't planned it
Craig:I'm so. Yeah, me neither. I'm so excited. But I think at the end of it, it's to, for me, maybe establish how we can have, whether it's ourselves, whether it's our environment, or whether it's other people in our lives. Because let's face it, we can all be like this. But I think for me, it's getting to a point where we can have some ideas around how to have a dickhead-free zone. Because when we have a dickhead-free zone, whether it's us or our environment or others or whatever that turns out to be after this conversation. We're going to be better. We're going to perform better. We're going to feel better. Things are just going to be better. So that's what I'm up for today, making things better and having a dickhead-free zone in my life.
Lisa:So
Craig:So where should we start?
Lisa:I think just an admin point of make sure you put like an E on this and make sure that, you know, this will be, it is a vulgar term and some people may find it quite genuinely.
Craig:It is. They will. And we're sorry, not sorry, but we're always ourselves. We're honest. We say things how we see them and we're going to do that.
Lisa:I think we should start with a dictionary definition, and the dictionary definition is a rude word for an unpleasant or stupid person. Related words and phrases, bird brain, blockhead, dunderhead, nincompoop, nit, troglodyte, twerp, burk, eejit, nimrod, ninny, turkey, twerp.
Craig:I love nincompoop, that's a great word.
Lisa:What does being a dickhead mean to you?
Craig:To me personally, it means so many things. And I think it depends on the context. And those definitions were great. They really were. Again, particularly love the word ink and poop. But for me, being a dickhead means being a bit of an idiot, being a wally, being stupid, letting things get in your way. not being the best you can be, making silly mistakes. There's a whole load of different things in there, I think, for me. It covers a whole realm of different words. But yeah, I think the main one for me, if you go, all right, dickhead, it's because I've probably done something stupid or I've done something that hasn't been great or whatever, I'd probably say.
Lisa:And are you talking about that from a You being a dickhead or you talking about it in someone else being a
Craig:dickhead? That's a really good question. I think a little bit of both because, yeah, I mean, that word for me, yeah, and, you know, it's a little bit salty. It's a little bit rude, I suppose. It's not one you'd probably use around your mum. But I think for me, when I use it, so probably much like you and your husband me and Pam we're always calling each other names some we're definitely not going to use on here because you know we're mucking around and you know whatever but if I call Pam a dickhead or a knobhead or whatever or she calls me one it's kind of with some like love around it I suppose but it's because they've been an idiot they've been stupid they've done something really really silly or something that should have been better so So yeah, for me, it can be both.
Lisa:And it's interesting because it can be another person. And then also because this podcast is about leadership, like how do we see that behavior in leaders perhaps sometimes?
Craig:Okay, this is different now then. I didn't think of that. So yeah, leadership is one of our things, isn't it? And teams is one of our things as well, creating great teams as well. I would probably say in a professional capacity, if I see a leader or a teammate or a colleague and I go, oh, they're all right. I probably don't mean it in quite as nice a way. You can probably see my tone change there. Are they all right, Nobbed? Are they all right, Ticket? I don't like them. So yeah, I suppose it depends on what the context is. But it will still be because something has happened which is not great or something has happened which I don't like or something has happened that doesn't work either for me or for other people. I think that's consistent throughout. But yeah, I suppose depending on who it is will depend on the level of love that comes with it. With Pam, comes with loads of love. And oh, you're just a bit of an obbed, you're a dickhead. If it's somebody in a professional capacity, might mean it's slightly
Lisa:different. And okay, so if I answer the same questions, so layer one, if the metaphorical dickhead is me, generally the behaviour that is being seen is a lot of self-sabotaging, judgment, second guessing, lots of criticism, just lots of unpleasantness in my own head.
Craig:So you're giving yourself a hard time.
Lisa:Yeah, completely. And if I then imagined that being someone that I was working with, energetically, I'd just be like, well, why? You know, they're always putting me down or the environment isn't particularly nice because there's just this constant harshness there. also if I then expand that out to like a leadership or a team perspective then it would be a lack of clear communication but then lots and lots of judgment coming back on that or lots of well you didn't do this you didn't ask me to you didn't make that clear and you know when they have a go at your back or complete lack of empathy or it could be just
Craig:yeah that's really interesting
Lisa:managing controlling all of that kind of stuff but actually all of that still goes on in my head it is a very busy place in my head
Craig:yeah mine too
Lisa:yeah and so
Craig:yeah that's really That's really interesting. I didn't think of it that way. So, so if I just go, just quickly go back to my, my different versions of it. If it's with somebody I care about, like a, like a real good friend, you or Pam or a family member, then I think you say it with, it comes with love. You kind of, you're calling them out on something, but I think it comes with that, that bit of love with yourself. If I think about it, I agree with you with me. Um, I'm really, really, really hard on myself. I'm really critical to the point, oh my God, you're such a dickhead. And you get really, really down about it. If it's about somebody else and maybe in a professional capacity, something that's happened that I don't like or I don't agree with, then yeah, it has that different flavor to it. It's like I was telling you about that email I got. And when I got the email through from somebody I know, I was like, oh, you dickhead. leeks, lock, and all that kind of stuff. So yeah, it comes in different flavours. Why do you think it's important for us to appreciate the different types and different flavours of this?
Lisa:I start at the... There are three layers then that we talked about. Those we love, ourself and others. So if we look at those we love, in fact, all of this, I think, is about relationship.
Craig:Yeah.
Lisa:If we are not aware of us being like that, or we are in an environment where others are behaving with those characteristics, it can really, really erode any form of positive relationship. It can destroy confidence, drip by drip, comic by comment, thought by thought, stops progress, hinders growth. It's just not helpful. You know that saying, if you can't work out who the dickhead in the room is, It's probably you. Yeah,
Craig:totally. Yeah, totally.
Lisa:So yeah, so for me, it's about relationship and connection.
Craig:Yeah, that's really powerful for me. Yeah, that's really powerful because if I think about it when I'm turning it in on myself, which I do loads of times. So, you know, just to put it out there, everyone, I call myself a dickhead far more than I call anyone else a dickhead and on a very regular basis. But yeah, But yeah, that's very much centered in the relationship I have with myself and what's going on and my mindset and stuff like that. If it is with others or even other environments, because I think it doesn't have to be a person for me, then again, it's about your relationship with that person. that person or environment or thing and then with the with the people you love again because it's got a different flavor again it's all about that relationship isn't it and what you bring with that yeah that's really interesting really interesting
Lisa:and when you think about productivity flow ease like doing the things that we're meant to do whether that's as individual business owners or within a team within an organization what's the relationship between the dickhead and flow and that productivity. How do you see that?
Craig:Oh, it's huge. It's absolutely huge. And, you know, it's how we got to this thing about having a dickhead or a knobhead free zone because when all of that exists, it just puts barriers up, doesn't it? It just gets in the way and it stops you from being your best and it stops the environment from being its best. Yeah, it just gets in the way, doesn't it? How can you flow when you are being a dickhead? You can't. How can you flow or how can the environment flow when others, whether that's leaders or colleagues or teammates, are being knobheads? You can't. And even in your personal relationships at home, if one of you is being an absolute knobhead and a regular knobhead as well, and it's not just a kind of silly one-off thing where you go, oh, you're all right, knobhead, it's going to impact the flow at home as well. It's, yeah, you can't separate the two.
Lisa:Not at all. And there's so many different facets to this but it's for me what that shows up like when it's my nincompoop it's loud and bold and you know just telling me stuff and I'm believing it it it halts everything that I'm supposed to do and it's not just well I've decided I'm going to write a newsletter and I'm not going to do the newsletter it's literally it permeates into everything and I think one of the lies that we have been told is that we can separate ourselves from home and business when you don't bring your home life to work but the fact is is that we are holistically connected we can't separate bits out we can compartmentalize but that brings its own you know struggles some people are really good at that and some people are not but fundamentally it's all it's all connected if we can understand what the inner dickhead is saying or even the actual dickhead like what's underneath the behavior then I think that we go some way to being able to move through it because otherwise, you know, the advice of, oh, just snap out of it, oh, come on, do better, pick your socks up, all of that kind of stuff that we would tell ourselves is actually completely useless because it doesn't do anything. All it does is it layers on more.
Craig:Yeah, totally. Yeah, I couldn't agree more with that. And I've been guilty many, many years ago of particularly early on in my leadership career of, You know, when members of my team coming into work and they were struggling or whatever, it's like, leave it at the door. As soon as you walk through that door, snap out of it. Work mode. And that was a complete knobhead thing to say, looking back on it, completely and utterly, because you can't separate the two. But you're right. When you're at home as well, you're going to bring work back with you. Yeah, so yeah. Yeah, that's massive. So shall we try and get underneath what, What causes all of this? So what causes you to be a dickhead? Or what creates an environment where that knobhead zone is sadly flourishing?
Lisa:I was thinking exactly the same thing. What is the purpose of dickheads?
Craig:So why are people dickheads? Why are we dickheads?
Lisa:The dickhead has now become a name. What is the purpose of dickheads?
Craig:Oh, absolutely brilliant. But no, it's a great question, isn't it? It's a great question. What is the purpose of it? Why does it happen? Because I think we have to understand that a little bit or a lot before we can then come up with some ways of getting rid of that or reducing that or minimizing it. So as much as possible, we can have a dickhead free zone. So what causes it for you?
Lisa:Over to you, what's the purpose? What do you think?
Craig:Oh, I knew you were going to ask me first. So, what is the purpose of a knobhead? See, I'm struggling with the word purpose because is it intentional? I would like to believe that I, and I'm holding the mirror up to myself here as well, and others, do not wake up in the morning, or I hope not, anyway, to be a dickhead on purpose. So if you're doing it on purpose, you're just doing it to antagonise, make things difficult. get in the way obstruct stop other people from from progressing and there and there's probably lots of things underneath that as to why you're doing it so yeah is it is it worth yeah let's talk about if you don't mind let's talk about that first so i get up in the morning and i'm just being a dickhead and i'm doing it on purpose why am i doing it
Lisa:what are you doing how do you know you're being a dickhead
Craig:i'm not behaving in a good way um not being very nice to people or myself i'm letting things get in the way i'm stopping myself and others from doing things yeah i'm just not being a great person
Lisa:and when that happens imagine that that's today what have you got going on later in the day that's causing you to be
Craig:like that. Alright, okay. So you're saying that it's a reaction to other stuff. So maybe people aren't consciously doing it on purpose. Because I'd like to think the vast majority of us, of course there are always exceptions, don't do it just for the fun of it. I'd really like to think that. I do still have some faith in humanity. So what you're saying is it's a reaction to something else.
Lisa:I'm not saying that. I'm curious to your thoughts.
Craig:So for me, I would probably say if I'm holding a mirror up to myself of when I'm being an Yeah, I'm not doing it on purpose. It's because I'm reacting to something else. I'm reacting to something that's upsetting me, something that's worrying me, something that's bothering me or stressing me out. I'm most of the time when I'm being a dickhead and Pam would back me up on this one is is probably cause I'm doing the whole victim villain helpless thing. And I've just sucked myself into this really kind of destructive mindset that things aren't good. Things aren't working. Why should I bother? I can't be bothered. Yada, yada, yada, yada, yada. So that's probably that's mostly why I'm I'm behaving that way, I would say. and
Lisa:and when you say you're kind of in that victim villain can't be bothered zone what are you afraid of when you're in that zone
Craig:um i'm not i don't think i'm afraid of anything but what i'm creating is these narratives to justify why i'm feeling the way i feel and why i behave the way i'm behaving um and then that'll convince me to to to carry on the way I'm going or to not do something or to behave in a certain way or whatever
Lisa:So I'm wondering if being a dickhead syndrome if you like is really a really clumsy bodyguard who's trying to protect us from something so we think that we are it's keeping us safe I won't I won't put that post out because it was a bit rubbish anyway but actually what it does is it stops us from taking healthy risks or we might think it puts us more in control but actually it makes us feel more out of control but it stops us from it's protective when we do it to ourselves because mine is anyway because a previous iteration of something similar has happened and maybe it didn't go well for whatever that reason was so it's kind of coming back to say don't do that again because remember last time that was embarrassing so you probably don't want to do that again
Craig:yeah
Lisa:in that moment I think we should name them like if we were to name it like who does it sound like what is it what's it saying and we were to humanise it. I do this with spiders. I'm not scared of spiders anymore because they all have a name. I am a bit weird, actually. Any potential clients, I am actually very professional as well, but I am a bit weird.
Craig:Yeah, anyone out there, we are literally crazy, but we are also really good at what we do.
Lisa:Exactly.
Craig:And we can turn our craziness off.
Lisa:Exactly. Most of the time. So who does it sound like, that one that you're describing in the morning?
Craig:Yeah, so... There's probably two different people then. So there's the victim one, which is, you know, the whingy, feel sorry for yourself. I can't be bothered and I'm not going to do it version. that stops myself from doing stuff and then there's the villain one where and again it's yeah it's that guard it's a protection isn't it where i'm reacting to something and and i'm putting the blame on others so that's got a slightly different flavor that is probably more or could be more kind of combative and a bit more leery a bit more you know kind of thing you know grumpy and and snappy and stuff like that um and they can all in into mingle it's like getting into into that it's like getting into a drama triangle with yourself where you go through those those three different um those three different things and then the helpless way you like I can't do anything about it um so yeah they're they're they're the different types I'm not sure what what I I would name them if it was me I'd probably be like yeah I'd probably still name them Craig Larry Craig
Lisa:yeah
Craig:crap Craig and and even worse Craig okay
Lisa:okay um and like i'm imagining i'm imagining now all of those three characters on on a triangle just running around after each other backwards and forwards backwards and forwards between each other forwards like and how does that play out when you've got that going on inside all the time
Craig:oh it's exhausting it's demoralizing it's demotivating it's do you know what And this is quite profound, actually, to just suddenly come to this realization. It's absolutely 100 million percent depressing. It really is. And I think probably for me, it creates that. It creates a depression. It creates a space and a time where I'm not my best and I'm not good. But what I'm also thinking now, if you're in that space and then you've got to go and work with or interact with other people and you take that with you, what does that then turn into? So if you're a leader and you're going into work or perhaps you run a business and you have people working for you and you're going into work and you've got all of that going on, how does that translate when you then interact with other people? Because when I'm By myself, it's bad enough. I mean, it's horrible. It really is. And no doubt, Pam will say, yeah, you're a bit of a knobhead when you're like that. But I'm thinking if you're then a leader or a teammate or a business owner or a colleague or whatever, and you're going into work, there's one thing doing it by yourself. And that's bad enough how you impact yourself. But what does that then manifest into in terms of what being a dickhead looks like around others? Because I think one leads to another. It starts with ourselves. And then it leads to being a dickhead around others as well. And then creating that zone that's just full of knobheads.
Lisa:Absolutely. It was interesting. When I got put on my medication a couple of years ago, a psychiatrist said to me, your brain, brain is exhausted. Like I think it's just crawling out from some quiet. So take this medication and it will quieten your brain down because that's exactly what happens in my brain all the time. All the time. And you kind of like wind the spring up tighter and tighter and tighter. And then there's no release because until you know how to flick switch and how to how to recognize it, how to move through it. Actually, you don't have a way out. It is just a constant tightening of the thoughts and the spiraling, et cetera, et cetera. And I can really see how that contributed in a large part to what was depression and anxiety because I was constantly talking in my head about stuff and questioning and ruminating and all that kind of stuff. I think I said to you before, though, like the first day I took that medication and I'm literally walking around the kitchen just looking behind me Like... It was just weird. And I said to my husband after a couple of days, he went, are you okay? I'm like, no, like the house is really, really quiet. It's weird. And he went, but there's no one here. And the radio's off. Of course it's quiet. It's quiet. And then after about a few days, it was like, I really missed my voices because I've got so used to just all these thoughts. But then combined with that and, you know, other ways of recognizing the patterns and being able to stop them and get off the roundabout, that was like, And I just wonder if when we persistently criticize ourselves or we just talk about ourselves for a second, we like this relentless voice, which ultimately says you're not good enough. Don't do it. Why are you bothering, etc? it just makes us feel shite. And all of those things, worthlessness, hopelessness, all of that kind of stuff, at the very far end of that spectrum, all leads to depression. So I think as humorous as the conversation is, there's also a really serious side to this, that actually everybody goes through this, everybody gets it because we're human beings and that's what happens. A, we need to have more conversations about it, and B, we need to have some really solid strategies which help us to choose to get off the train. I'm not going in that direction. I don't want to go there.
Craig:Yeah. There's a reason for it, isn't there? When you're being a dickhead or other people are being a dickhead. When I think about that email that I was telling you about, now I'm thinking there's a reason why that person felt the need to send that. So what's now, what's going on with them that they felt the need to do that? And that's putting a completely different spin on it now. So now I have a bit of empathy for it because then there's obviously other stuff going on. So when people are being dickheads or when you're being a dickhead, there's a reason for it. I don't think we do it just for the sake of it or for the fun of it. There's a reason for it. So what I'd like to ask you, Lisa... Because I'd like to try and understand this for myself a bit more as well. And again, let's focus on ourselves before then we can move on to other people. Because I think it all starts, whether it's us or other people, it all starts in the same place, doesn't it? But yeah, I'd like to ask, what triggers your inner Obed? what triggers you being a knobhead
Lisa:so if i'm doing it to myself are you talking about me personally or just
Craig:yeah
Lisa:yeah um so if i'm doing it to myself it is if i had if i've not had any interaction with other human beings for a while i haven't talked to them about my ideas and i'm not talking about just into shops and morning that kind of interaction i mean interaction with people who are really genuinely interested in what you've got going on who are curious who ask you questions who don't dismiss your ideas or your thoughts and are interested in like what does that look like tell me about that you know those magical conversations where you walk away and go that was brilliant I feel you don't even know why you feel amazing but you're like
Craig:I caught one yesterday
Lisa:exactly so when I haven't had that kind of connection with somebody and I find that the voices my inner demons get a bit louder Also, if I'm working on something, I tend to lose confidence probably around my professional stuff more than anything. And a lot of that is the, am I good enough? People will find out. They'll find out that I'm a trained, qualified, insured coach that's spent hundreds of hours learning. Random, you know. They'll find out that we've got credibility and lots of experience in this field, Craig. They'll find out. But so that kind of, Yeah, just for me, it's there. It's when I'm working alone. That's where I find my demons come out a little bit more or it's something that I just don't feel like I can really share honestly and authentically with other people. Then I start to question it in my head.
Craig:Yeah, that's a big one for me as well. Huge, huge one for me. And after eight years of running my own business, one that I've, and for everyone that runs a business, even if you have people work with you, it's very lonely. But if you kind of like a, so what's the word? What's the word? Solopreneur? I hate that term, but that's what we are, I suppose. People who kind of, you know, run solo businesses like myself and Lisa. And I've said this before, but being naturally introverted, I never thought this would be an issue because I really don't mind my own company, but I've really noticed the impact that that lonely The loneliness, the isolation, that lack of interaction has because despite the fact that I am introverted and I'm initially uncomfortable around others sometimes or groups of people sometimes, once I'm into it and I've done it, it's like the best feeling in the world. I love it. I absolutely love it. You know, I get a high from it. So yeah, that's definitely one for me. But I think mine is mixed with the scary bit about putting myself out there in front of people. But also when I don't do it, That's not good for me either. So that's a really weird thing for me. And I just need to get over that, put myself out there, I think. So yeah. And another one for me is just fear. Fear of not doing very well or fear of failing or fear of being found. I mean, what are we going to be found out about? We're really good at what we do, even if we do say so ourselves. But, you know, being found out or people aren't going to like us or people are going to think it's rubbish or whatever, or the fear of the unknown. You know, I don't know. what I'm going to earn next month. Now, I've been doing this for eight years. I should be used to it by now, but every month it's still really scary because I've got to get more business in and get more work in and get more sales and stuff like that. Now, when that's all going well, that diminishes a little bit, so that's not so bad, but there's always this constant nagging fear. So I'm wondering if this thing around being a knobhead, whether it's yourself or even if it's us seeing it in other people, when we're dickheads, is it because there's a fear of some kind there and we're almost in fight, flight or freeze mode because I think when I'm doing it to myself, I'm definitely in one of those modes. I'm either fighting something, I'm running away from it or I'm freezing and I'm doing absolutely nothing and that's because of a perceived threat. So I'm wondering, are we dickheads because of these threats that we're perceiving, whether they're real or not, and because we're scared? What do you reckon?
Lisa:Yeah, I agree completely and And that goes back to that bodyguard piece. So what I'm getting is a sense of this is stickheadness is about protectiveness against a fear of something. So I think that we have to be able to then have a kind of road sign of, okay, you've recognized it. And we've talked a lot previously about the importance of self-reflection. If we're not doing that self-reflection, we will never know that that is the thing that's going on. Making time to have a practice of, even if it's just when you're brushing your teeth, what's going on? I did a non-violent communication course recently, which I found so interesting and so helpful. But I've created an acronym, and it's about taking a stand against dickhead syndrome. Okay? Cool, then. Okay, so we need to stop. Pause what we're doing. Just breathing and just noticing what's going on. We tune in, so breathe, turn your attention inward, listening to your body, listening to your thoughts, write it down, see it, what's going on, but actually just stopping and tuning in. Then we're asking ourselves, what exactly is this message about? What exactly am I saying to myself? What is the voice saying? What are my feelings? And for me, like the feelings piece is really big because people, we don't talk about feelings. We're not taught about feelings and we don't know how to articulate our feelings.
Craig:Yeah, that's really
Lisa:powerful. But every... behind every feeling is a need that is not being met or is being met and we have to be i think we can have a discussion about that another day but there's the feelings piece then the n is about nurturing and giving yourself some compassion so imagining that feeling as a person or you know a form in front of you like how would you let's imagine it's fear and embarrassment and shame and they are sat in front of you at your table like how would you treat them if it was your friend what would you be saying to them would you be like oh come on you get on with it or would you be like hey what do you need right now what's going on so that compassion piece is really big and then deciding like how do you want to respond what what would be helpful in this next moment what do you need in order to get from here to the next place is what you're currently thinking taking you to where you want to be Or is it taking you away from where you want to be? And then, you know, more inquiry around it. But taking a stand to the nincompoops.
Craig:That is genius. So we've got, so taking a stand to knobbedness or nincompoopness. This is gold. Stop, tune in, ask ourselves, nurture, and then decide. I love that. That is so, so good. That is really, really good. I'm having that. Thank you. I'm having that. That is really good. Yeah, wow. I love that. I love that. So we've talked a little bit about, you know, what this means and how it impacts us and what triggers us as well. Just quickly, by the way, another big trigger of mine as well, and I think you probably agree with this, Lisa, is social media and the news. That is a real big, big trigger for me do you think that is or is that for you eliciting or evoking the same reactions that fear response threat response
Lisa:I think most people are I am not a psychiatrist by any means I think most people are living in fight or flight because we are flooded with images of stuff and to not have a response to that whether it like I am a very I've always worn my heart on my sleeve I always have done and I am unable to suppress my feelings around certain things so I will see something in the morning and it will haunt me for the rest of the day and it will make me think about stuff but I've always been the same like if I've watched a movie or a a series where there's been something horrid it makes me think and I'm like oh my god somebody thought of that like that's horrendous and then my brain goes off the joys of being a complete soft sat heart centred kind of
Craig:person I do that like watching a drama me and Pam are really into like crime dramas and crime thrillers and we'll be watching like a crime drama and something like really horrible bad will happen and I'll be like oh my god who would do that what's wrong with the world and Pam will be like it's not real Craig yeah but that stuff goes on
Lisa:I just don't watch it anymore.
Craig:I can't watch the news.
Lisa:We were watching Gangs of London and I was like, this is so violent and so horrendous. It's so far removed from my life. I don't even want to know about this. I don't even want to see it. But I will watch the news and I watch independent people and their opinions and stuff about certain topics that are important to me because I don't just want to see the narrative that I have to be fed. I want to see the truth from other people. But unfortunately, that can then sit with me for a long time. And then also, I suppose, because I've been in the army and maybe because I've seen other stuff, I You know, I just think I get big worries. You know, a while ago I was packing my emergency rucksack in case we, I don't know where we would go, but just all of this stuff that just my brain hurts after a while. And other people are really, it's easy for them to not see it, to not feel it, to switch off and be really, really switched off from it. Just not switched on. I don't know. I can't do that. Like, I just can't do it.
Craig:I'm wondering how many of us, how many people this affects those, you know, you know, simple thing like, I don't know. You know, reading something about the economy on my news app or tariffs or, oh, my God, the economy is crashing. My business is over. And how that will impact me and I'll start triggering stuff. And all of a sudden I'm being an obbed to myself or I'm scrolling through LinkedIn and I see stuff that I don't like or that I don't agree with. And that will trigger me or I do the whole, and I've really, I used to be really good at this, but I'm getting really bad at it again, the whole comparing thing. how's it they're doing that what are they doing?
Lisa:I was literally about to say that
Craig:how is that? how? how what, what what am i doing wrong? you know. i'm doing this so how is it that? what? and then i and that sends me into to a bit of knobheadness as well so yeah they're they're they're really big triggers for me but i'm just wondering you know that that must affect more than just us that must affect most most people out there
Lisa:i'm wondering if if Joe Average was really honest that they that they would that they would say yeah I get that too but other people their protective mechanisms are stronger thicker whatever mine is like a thin veil of cling film with it just you can see it you can mold it around and then and then that affects personal resilience because actually we're sorry to flick flat because I'm just also thinking about that control, influence, accept piece, that actually there are things that are completely out of our control, completely out of our influence, but really do have an impact on how our lives are. you know, the current global situation, that there is always something that we can do to change the narrative. And at the beginning, you said, you know, starting with ourselves. If we kind of take this into a team environment, we have to start with ourselves. We have to resource ourselves. We have to be self-aware to know what is going on for me right now. How might I be passing this energy on to other people, this worry, this fear? fear because that's not if we imagined it as little rucksacks of energy that we're giving to other people as we walk around here you go here's my anxiety here's my grumpiness because this didn't happen here's this like we're just literally handing out bags and bags of stuff that do not belong to other people.
Craig:A million percent.
Lisa:we've got to start with ourselves
Craig:so yeah I just wanted to get on to that so you know moving on to So when we see this in other people, firstly, am I right in saying that the same reasons it happens to ourselves and we turn ourselves into in our bed, those same things are happening to other people. Now, it might not be for the same reasons, but they are being triggered by something. They perceive a threat of some kind. They're scared. They're fearful. They're worried. They're stressed. So when you see that leader being a knobhead and just being horrible to people and shouting, there's probably a reason for it. Now, I'm not excusing the behavior, but there's a reason for it. When a teammate is being a knobhead, there is probably a reason for it. And there's similar reasons to what to when we're a knobhead. Would you agree with that?
Lisa:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And actually, it's a bit like a guard dog barking at the postman. He's not really barking at the postman. The dog's afraid of something that's going to happen, so it's easier to shout now.
Craig:Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what do we, so you, something you mentioned there was really interesting. Like we're passing on these, these, these bags or rucksacks of energy because I think, you know, it does start with ourselves. And then when we see it in other people, you can kind of pass on, it can be like a wildfire before you know it, you're in a complete knobhead zone. Full of knobhead. What can we do about that? So first of all, we need to do your acronym there, the STAND thing. So stop, tune in, ask ourselves, nurture, decide. So that's a real good thing that we can do for ourselves when we recognize that knobhead thing. And again, that self-reflection piece is important. One thing that, again, I need to do so much more of that used to work really well for me is just trying to be present. But when we see it in the workplace, when our leaders, when our teammates, our colleagues, our customers, our suppliers, our associates, whoever, are also being knobheads, what do we do then?
Lisa:So I think that before we take a breath, before we go anywhere near a person or anything, I think we have to check where we are. And we have to make sure that we're coming from a space of neutrality and calm. We're not coming from emotion. We're coming from resource.
Craig:Yeah. So again, be present.
Lisa:Yeah. So there's that piece of checking where we are. Being
Craig:emotionally intelligent.
Lisa:I think it's about not naming and shaming. Not, oh, Craig, you're such a dickhead. You just are such and such. Yeah. That we're approaching conversations, first of all, for connection and with compassion. Because if we recognise that actually... Dickhead behaviour is coming from an unmet need. And from what we've been talking about, that sounds like a need to feel safe, a need to feel grounded or a need to feel confident in what I'm doing or something along those lines.
Craig:Could it be a need to be validated?
Lisa:Yeah, yeah,
Craig:absolutely. A need to feel valued or that I'm better than I am. than I think I am. Could it come from there as well?
Lisa:Yeah, but that need for validation has also come from a place of fear of I'm not good enough. So if we always just... On the NVC course, they taught us, you know, when you open your mouth to have that conversation, are you having a conversation to connect or to correct? So just leading with connection. What's your intention behind what you're going to say to this person? So
Craig:empathy is really important.
Lisa:Say again?
Craig:Empathy is really important. Yeah.
Lisa:Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's like having just so taking a tactical pause of that moment for what might be going on for this person right now.
Craig:Yeah. Here's another question for you, if you don't mind. I think we've all probably had environments that we'll call the knobhead zone in our lives or people that we might class as knobheads or dickheads. And they, no matter what we do or try, um, That zone stays like that. That environment stays like that. Those people stay like that. What do we do then?
Lisa:What's your experience of that? What have you
Craig:done? Honestly, walked away. I think... You obviously start with yourself. You try and connect with people. You try and bring empathy. You try and see things through their eyes. You try and understand them, maybe even have a conversation about it. Because I think we have a right to have a conversation with people when things aren't working for us or things aren't working. But ultimately, if that doesn't change and that environment doesn't change and it's not for you, I think the only option you have is to walk away. And I think that's okay to do that. I really do. I think you should do it with acceptance. So you don't do it with the victim villain thing going on because I don't think that's healthy. But I think you do it with complete acceptance, almost forgiveness. But then you walk away and go, do you know what? It's okay for me not to be around this. And I'm not going to be around this because it's not good for me. But if you want to carry on, you carry on. And then you walk away. And I suppose you need to determine to what extent that you walk away.
Lisa:I think that in those environments where the behaviour continues the environment becomes toxic it's not a safe space for people to speak up I think generally the person or small group of people who are causing that are never called out on it because people are too afraid to speak up and so because we like I can think of a million not a million I can think of a hundred scenarios where that's happened to me where I just haven't spoken up because I didn't have the language I didn't have the tools and I didn't I didn't have the safety network around me to be able to say that. But actually, we have to, within organizations, if we... Well, let's look at certain situations going on in the world at the moment with leadership. If people do not speak up about the impact of stuff happening in a way that is not personal, but is actually... It is an honest reflection of what's going on without emotion, but it is when this happens, when you did or said that, this is what the impact was. If we don't hold people to account in leadership positions, shit continues to grow and get smellier and stuff gets bigger and bigger. Like we have to be, and that comes from a place of, that comes from a place of courage to be able to say that.
Craig:I was just going to say that.
Lisa:It's super, super important. So it might just sound like, Craig, In that meeting, I noticed that you kept cutting across people before they'd finished having, or before they'd finished speaking. When you do that, it really shuts the conversation down and it makes it harder for people to express what they're thinking. Next time, could you wait until people have finished speaking before you make your point? No, you might not even be aware.
Craig:Yeah, absolutely. You
Lisa:might not even be aware of the fact that you do that.
Craig:Because again, people, I mean, and little things like that can be a really knobhead thing to do. And some of them are fairly minor. Obviously, you get bigger ones. But again, I don't think the vast majority of people are doing it on purpose. And we're not excusing the behavior, but they're doing it because there's stuff going on or they're just not aware. And there are people out there who are just not very self-aware. And it's not that they're bad people. They're just not self-aware and they need to learn those skills. So you said that there's speak up, reflection, accountability. So- In terms of, you know, creating knobhead or dickhead free zones, you start with yourself. But I think those three things, speaking up with yourself, reflecting on yourself and having that accountability for yourself, that goes for you, but as well as other people, doesn't it?
Lisa:If everyone was doing that, like how different would the organisation be? How different would the team be?
Craig:Not bed-free zones, Lisa.
Lisa:Exactly. And then I think, so I'm wondering whether it would be helpful to share an MVC way of doing this because it feels kind of relevant. So it might sound like, Craig, so just say that you're senior to me or whatever. We just, we work with each other. Craig, there was a few things that went on in that meeting just now. Would you be willing to spend five minutes to talk about them? It might be, yeah, just not now. Can we do it in 10 minutes or whatever? And then I'm going to start with, So I'm going to check in on my state before we have that conversation. And then I'm going to start with what was going on for you in that meeting? How did you find it? You give me your perspective. And then I'm going to say something like, so I had some thoughts around the meeting as well. Would you be open to hearing them?
Craig:Yeah, that's good.
Lisa:Whatever. Or I had some observations in the meeting that I'd sort of heard from other people and stuff that I'd seen and experienced. Would you be open to hearing that? Yeah, go on then. I'm not sure if you're aware, but when you were asking people questions, you kept cutting across people's answers. And that was helping people getting really frustrated. And my personal experience is that makes me feel quite resentful towards you because I can't, you're asking my opinion, but you're not interested in what I've got to say. You might not even know what's going on. You'd be like, do I? Yeah.
Craig:Or I might be doing it, Lisa, because I've got something going on. I'm really frustrated. I'm stressed. I'm worried. I hate these stupid meetings. I just want to get on with it. So there could be loads of stuff going on for me, couldn't
Lisa:there? But it means that I've raised it. Exactly. Come back, we'll have a conversation because this is without emotion. And then it would be, I'd really like to sort this out. Can we come up, have you got any ideas about how we can move forward with this so that everybody gets heard and nobody feels, you know, like you're cutting over them? Actually, yeah, what I'd really like you to do is next time I do that, I want you to tell me. I want you to wave a pen at me so I know I've done it. Okay, cool. Or whatever. But then on the other side of that, if they go, well, that's not on me, well, whatever, then it's, well, then it's time for that boundary of, I really care about this company and I really want to have a positive working relationship with you, but I'm not okay with you speaking over me when we're having a meeting. So if you're unable to do that, I won't come to the meetings.
Craig:Yeah,
Lisa:yeah, yeah. Well, then you lose your job. And then you've got to look at the paper and go, is that what you really mean?
Craig:Yeah, that's great.
Lisa:That's really good. But if we go into that conversation activated and triggered and you're like, oh. sorry that's really bad sorry if we're kind of going with that kind of attitude then energetically we're just giving that person the rucksack to carry and then they're just going to go oh what's in here i'll have a little bit of that too so we have to think with ourselves and we have to be courageous in speaking up compassionate in the way that we're dealing with other people and curious about the situation yeah
Craig:absolutely i love that and do you know what else is springing to mind as well just when you were describing that conversation which was really really great it made me realize that whoever you are in an organization either or not everybody should have some level of of ability and training in how to have a coaching conversation and how to deliver great feedback like that. Because I think when you've got those skills, you're going to be in a better position and have better capabilities to have those types of conversations, aren't you?
Lisa:Yes.
Craig:So maybe these are skills that are not just for leaders and managers to be able to give feedback and to be able to coach people. I think everybody in an organisation should have the ability to hold a great coaching conversation and to be able to deliver great feedback because it can help in so many different situations. Yeah, just thought I'd throw that out there.
Lisa:I think so. I'm sure you've been in the sort of the communication workshops where we put our chairs at 45 degrees and talk about where we're going to sit in the room. I mean, that's fine, but we're still not having the conversation. Actually, we have to These communication workshops need to be more about how do you access the courage? How do you get into the right energy? How do you say that first? Okay, I'm going to do it. Okay, what do I need in order to be able to go to that person and say, I need to have a conversation with you. That's the difficult bit.
Craig:I a million percent agree with that because whilst those skills are really really great, you know, that's really the kind of the end bit and what you say and how you might structure that conversation. But before you get there, you've got to have that self-awareness you've got to be able to manage your emotions you've got to have the right level of motivation and empathy and then you have to be able it's not just about what you say it's also how you say it so yeah you've got to be in the right state as well and it just keeps me coming back to your your stand thing it works in so many different ways you've got to stop you've got to tune in you've got to ask yourself you've got to nurture and you've got to decide um are you going to do something that's going to move you away are you going to do something that's going to move you towards yeah Or that's going to be good for you or bad for you. That's so good, that. That's so good. Really, really, really good. So anything else to add in terms of trying to create not-bet-free zones?
Lisa:I think it's just understanding that we are not our thoughts. We are not our feelings. We are separate to those, although we can become intricately linked into them. I think it's so important for people to really understand their feelings and their needs. And I think we should do an episode about feelings and needs, Craig, because it is a topic that we do not talk about because people don't think they've got needs. And of course they've got needs. This goes back to kind of links to the Maslow's triangle that we talked about. But if you can understand that you're feeling resentful because my need for collaboration is not being met by you not respecting what we've agreed to, That's a much more positive conversation than, oh, you're just a really shit team member.
Craig:Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So in terms of creating Norbed-free zones, let's do our LYL podcast, Ponder Points. So for me, I've actually got a few. I'm just going to kind of... podcast ponder point is going to be a little summary of what we discussed being a knobhead and knobhead zones i think start with ourselves and that's where we have to start you're you're really right we are not our thoughts and feelings we are separate from our thoughts and feelings but when we become our thoughts and feelings that is when you're probably going to be a knobhead or a much bigger chance of being a knobhead and then passing that energy on to others and then creating knobhead zones and other people being knobheads. So yeah, I think you've got to be present. You've got to be mindful. You've got to separate yourself from your thoughts and your feelings. You've got to start with yourself and you've got to do your stand thing, which I absolutely love. Stop, tune in, ask yourself, nurture. What's the nurture one about again, quick?
Lisa:Get back, get back, hang on. giving yourself some compassion imagining if you were if that feeling was a person
Craig:yeah that's it yeah that's really great and then and then and then deciding you know what what you're gonna do um so so i absolutely love that and i think if we start there we have more of a chance of us not being not beds and creating not bed zones where that energy just just just gets passed around like like a know what you call those arcade machines with a can't remember what they're called Pinball machine, yeah. Why was that so hard? Yeah, you just get pinged around and that energy gets passed around and all of a sudden you've got that environment because I think it can breed. But then I think it's also when you see it in others, it's what you then do. And I think that your stand thing still applies to that. But it's about being aware, stopping, reflecting, speaking up, being courageous to speak up, but doing it in the right way, as you described. So yeah, that would be my kind of summary podcast on the point. What about you?
Lisa:So mine is around what would the relationship with ourself and others look like if we were not being dickheads and if we had the tools and the skills to recognise when we were being them and what to do about it.
Craig:Yeah.
Lisa:So it's that. And also just the how... How can we reframe the villainous dickhead to the protective bodyguard? How easy is that for you? And what do you need in order to be able to do that?
Craig:Yeah, absolutely. Because I think when people are being knobheads or we're being knobheads, it's so easy to get sucked into that, isn't it? And then create those narratives. So I think we have to be able to recognise when we're doing that and then respond in a better way. I absolutely love that. Wow. That didn't go where I thought it was going to go. That was super interesting.
Lisa:I think we should create a No Knobs Allowed one-day course for organisations so that they can create dickhead-free zones. Quite genuinely.
Craig:We should. So anyone that's listening, if you want myself and Lisa to run a workshop for you so you can create great cultures that are dickhead-free zones, let us know. Get in touch. We'll be happy, more than happy, to help you do that. So yeah, anyone, let us know if you want us to help you. Wow, what a great episode. Really interesting. Anything else to add, Lisa?
Lisa:Have a lovely weekend
Craig:yes have a lovely weekend everyone or next day whenever you happen to be listening to this because you might not be listening to this on friday um so yeah but whatever you're doing after you listen to this um we uh we hope it's we hope it's awesome lovely and knobhead free so Thank you so much, Lisa. Pleasure as always. And thank you, everyone, for listening or watching on whatever channel you are listening or watching on. Please don't forget to give us a like, a follow or a subscribe. And we look forward to seeing you next time.
Lisa:See ya.
